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California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

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Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#31

Post by toomuchtodo »

DrBazza wrote: post #25
z_rex wrote: post #10

I work in the power generation industry. The large scale introduction of Battery Storage is going to be a game changer for renewables since it will allow overproduction during the day to be stored for the evening peak. I think the current fad of peaking plants is somewhat overblown, as the average large scale battery storage system will not face the issues with starting reliability that can be present on large gas tu…

Why can't anywhere that has significant elevation should just pumped storage of water during the day and use hydro on the way back down?

Batteries installed on concrete slabs are easier and cheaper, there are only so many places pumped hydro is feasible.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40919052

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#32

Post by inamberclad »

petulla wrote: post #21

Hope other states follow. The fact Arizona is still 80%+ non-renewable is just such a missed opportunity.

Arizona is a great case where agrovoltaics could really work. Solar reduces the sun load to something reasonable and minimizes evaporation, plants cool the air under the panels. Human / nature infrastructure symbiosis.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#33

Post by User23 »

jeffbee wrote: post #24
pokstad wrote: post #18

No heat wave in SoCal yet. Let me know when the grid breezes through all of LA and OC having a heatwave.

It was 121º in Palm Springs and 100º in Riverside last Monday. I don't know what the population-weighted temperature was that day but that's pretty hot?

Meanwhile the San Diego heatwave is a scorching two degrees above average at 78 degrees[1]. Now if the Santa Anas start blowing during one of these inland heatwaves and the grid still holds up that will be great.

[1] If this sounds like sarcasm, try living in coastal San Diego for a few years. You really acclimate to the perfect weather and 78 really does feel awfully hot. To say nothing of those freezes where it dips into the 60s. I’ve seen bar patios turn the heaters on then.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#34

Post by riku_iki »

DrBazza wrote: post #25
z_rex wrote: post #10

I work in the power generation industry. The large scale introduction of Battery Storage is going to be a game changer for renewables since it will allow overproduction during the day to be stored for the evening peak. I think the current fad of peaking plants is somewhat overblown, as the average large scale battery storage system will not face the issues with starting reliability that can be present on large gas tu…

Why can't anywhere that has significant elevation should just pumped storage of water during the day and use hydro on the way back down?

some existing example of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gianelli_Power_Plant

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#35

Post by skhunted »

jmugan wrote: post #22
wumeow wrote: post #3

Compare and contrast with Texas.

I dislike right-wing silliness as much as anyone, but this whole hate against Texas is just weird. We had Montana winter weather for a week and our grid went down. I had a business partner in California during a period a few years back and we had to reschedule meetings around when he would have electricity. We should just focus on doing better instead of fighting.

The hate as you call it is not weird. It’s a reasonable response to a state that consistently enacts laws and regulations that hurt the people. You get what you vote for and people in other states have to put up with idiotic Texas politicians who vote against hurricane Sandy aid while later requesting help. Texas deserves far more “hate” than it gets.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#36

Post by jopsen »

mariebks wrote: post #30
DrBazza wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't anywhere that has significant elevation should just pumped storage of water during the day and use hydro on the way back down?

I’m not an expert on this topic, but I think it comes down to cost and scalability. You have to construct a new project with custom specs for the exact site you’re on, and the permitting for a large environmental change is another drag. For large scale batteries, they all are a somewhat complex power electronic wrapper around mass produced battery cell cans or pouches that can be dropped anywhere. The cost declines o…

Not to mentioned all the dirty cheap second hand batteries becoming available as electric cars are scrapped.

For grid storage second hand batteries might be fine. If taking them out of a scrapped car is feasible.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#37

Post by mullingitover »

pokstad wrote: post #18

No heat wave in SoCal yet. Let me know when the grid breezes through all of LA and OC having a heatwave.

Socal and the general southwest has been setting records[1]. Some highlights:

> Palmdale and Lancaster on Tuesday experienced a record sixth straight day of temperatures at or above 110 degrees, surpassing the prior record of three days for both Antelope Valley cities. But wait, there’s more — officials say the streak is expected to continue the rest of the week, with highs forecast over 110 until Friday.

> Las Vegas on Sunday smashed its record high temperature by three degrees, hitting 120 for the first time since record-keeping began in 1937.

> Las Vegas is also expected to break its all-time record for consecutive days at or above 110 degrees, on its way there with six days in a row Tuesday. It’s forecast to remain just as hot through next week, which would beat the prior 10-day streak.

> Palm Springs on Friday hit 124 degrees, its highest temperature in recorded history.

[1] https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-07-09/temperat...

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#38

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

redleader55 wrote: post #28
z_rex wrote: post #10

I work in the power generation industry. The large scale introduction of Battery Storage is going to be a game changer for renewables since it will allow overproduction during the day to be stored for the evening peak. I think the current fad of peaking plants is somewhat overblown, as the average large scale battery storage system will not face the issues with starting reliability that can be present on large gas tu…

> I think the current fad of peaking plants is somewhat overblown Do you mean peak powerplants will become obsolete? As far as I know, in many places peak powerplants are hydroelectric, which in the future, aided by local batteries, will allow filling the reservoir lakes to higher limits and covering greater peaks - eg. malfunctions - which in turn will make grids more stable. The big unknown, as far as I understand,…

you can make batteries out of iron or sulfur. no rare minerals required.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#39

Post by jmugan »

skhunted wrote: post #35
jmugan wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dislike right-wing silliness as much as anyone, but this whole hate against Texas is just weird. We had Montana winter weather for a week and our grid went down. I had a business partner in California during a period a few years back and we had to reschedule meetings around when he would have electricity. We should just focus on doing better instead of fighting.

The hate as you call it is not weird. It’s a reasonable response to a state that consistently enacts laws and regulations that hurt the people. You get what you vote for and people in other states have to put up with idiotic Texas politicians who vote against hurricane Sandy aid while later requesting help. Texas deserves far more “hate” than it gets.

You don't have to see the world in such stark terms. There is plenty of silliness everywhere.

Re: California Grid Breezes Through Heatwave with Batteries

#40

Post by applied_heat »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #11
_Microft wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They might even be paid for consuming power because that provides stability to the grid [0] in such a situation. Too little load causes the frequency on the grid to rise which is only acceptable within narrow limits. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_services_(electric_p...

Absolutely, there is no doubt that are stealing grid service revenue from spinning thermal, and they also provide black start services (jump starting larger generators when they go out through an isolated transmission path).

I was under the impression that “grid forming” as opposed to “grid following” inverters were not a solved problem. Can you cite any battery plant with documented tests of energizing transmission or distribution systems?
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