Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

cnn.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

251–260 of 462 posts

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#251

Post by jmyeet »

AlexandrB wrote: post #248
jmyeet wrote: post #202

Note: this isn't a power grid issue. Texas is famously not connected to the national grid [1]. This is an issue of downed power lines. An obvious question is: why doesn't Houston have underground power? It turns out that Houston really shouldn't exist. It's built on a swamp. It's also hot so heat dissipation is an issue. So it's expensive [2]. Houston is also famous for its lack of zoning [3]. Combine this with a lot…

> It's almost as large as LA with slightly more than half the population. Geez. I thought LA was quite bad already.

Here are some comparisons I like to use that really put things in perspective, particlarly for Europeans:

1. The Greater Houston Metro Area is larger than Wales;

2. Greater Houston has fewer people than London but is almost twenty times the area;

3. IIRC if liad out the Greater Houston area over England it would stretch from London to Birmingham;

4. Greater Houston is, in fact, larger than several states including New Jersey;

5. Greater Houston is more than half the size of Switzerland.

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#252

Post by FrustratedMonky »

FredPret wrote: post #171
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does physics dictate how you build power lines? Where is physics the constraint on more hardened construction? Physics isn't saying, build above ground and 'low cost'.

> Does physics dictate how you build power lines? Bro. Come up with a plan and a budget for your buried cables and sell it to the people of Texas who will have to pay for it.

They are paying for it. It's either on the front end with regulations on more expensive construction, or on the back end with power outages, damage and repairs.

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#253

Post by Symbiote »

nostrademons wrote: post #174
bdcravens wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing, but migrating to it is very expensive. Centerpoint, the physical electricity provider in Houston, has said it would cost $2.5M per square mile. Houston is 640 square miles. Regulations allow them to claw back costs on the bills. (For example, repairs from past storms are often paid for over the course of several years in the form of a bond that is applied to customers as surcharges) https://www.houstonchroni…

There actually are a few problems with underground power lines, notably that maintenance & upgrades are much harder and more expensive, they tend to get severed by construction, they tend to get severed by earthquakes, and bad things result if the waterproof conduit around them is punctured. On balance I think they're probably worth it for areas prone to wildfire, but undergrounding all power lines is not a panacea,…

In European cities where underground power lines are normal these issues aren't a problem.

There might be costs (checking before construction for example) and it being normal it helps.

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#254

Post by Symbiote »

Teknomancer wrote: post #98
KingOfCoders wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Berlin, 3.645M citizen, everything underground. Houston, 2.302M citizen, ... "gigantic"

Berlin, Germany is inland, with an elevation average around 34 meters above sea level. The ground soil composition in Berlin is primarily sandy, draining easily and lending itself exceptionally well to underground infrastructure development. Houston, Texas, is coastal and has an elevation that averages around 13 meters above sea level. The ground composition in Houston is primarily made up of clay. Houston soil is no…

How about Amsterdam, or London (outer London if you want a lower density).

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#255

Post by chgs »

standardUser wrote: post #249
AtlasBarfed wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Texans basically should view grid independent home solar as a minimum requirement. Between this and the ice storm s couple years ago Texas has shown itself incapable of utility grade service. In general I think the disaster resilience afforded by home solar is simply not valued enough by subsidies and incentives policies.

Texas is a highly urbanized state and a significant number of families don't have the ability to install home solar, so it cannot be viewed as 'minimum requirement' and some other solution is neccesary.

Maybe people could club together and form some form of group which provides that minimum requirement for the whole area. You could perhaps have an equal say in the group, and have a meeting every few years where you elect some people to run the thing on your behalf.

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#256

Post by fnfjfk »

galdosdi wrote: post #162
KingOfCoders wrote: post #36

Germany has overengineered and expensive utilities, but I'm happy sometimes that all power and telephone lines are underground.

Another poster pointed out that the cost of moving lines underground is really only a one time fee of about $5 per person per month for about 10 years. This does not seem too expensive for a permanent increase in reliability. One thing I will miss about living in Manhattan is the power never ever went out, at least not due to the distribution grid. And, it's a minor, minor thing, but as a bonus, having lines out of s…

Were you here in 2012 for "SoPo"?

https://ny.curbed.com/2017/10/29/16560706/hurricane-sandy-an...

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#257

Post by chgs »

galdosdi wrote: post #162
KingOfCoders wrote: post #36

Germany has overengineered and expensive utilities, but I'm happy sometimes that all power and telephone lines are underground.

Another poster pointed out that the cost of moving lines underground is really only a one time fee of about $5 per person per month for about 10 years. This does not seem too expensive for a permanent increase in reliability. One thing I will miss about living in Manhattan is the power never ever went out, at least not due to the distribution grid. And, it's a minor, minor thing, but as a bonus, having lines out of s…

I was in New York during hurricane sandy, staying in a hotel on I think 28th street.

Really weird seeing complete darknesss to the south with just a march of flashlights coming uptown to charge their phones in Duane Reade.

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#258

Post by massysett »

gunapologist99 wrote: post #206
galdosdi wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's free if you spend it on a durable asset that is as or more valuable than the cash was, which can often be true of infrastructure. Your balance sheet goes up not down after the spend then.

There are vanishingly few examples of infrastructure spending that don't turn into massive, wasteful boondoggles; perhaps the Interstate Highway system. The national railroad system a century prior and even the Internet were nearly entirely built with private funds.

Railroads got massive subsidies in at least two forms: huge land grants, and the power of the U.S. Army to wage war on the native peoples who otherwise would have stood in their way.

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#259

Post by chgs »

xboxnolifes wrote: post #212
jncfhnb wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per person per month for 10 years is a ridiculous unit to choose. Europe benefits from being very dense. The US grid is way more spread out. Undergrounding costs are around $1M per mile. The US has millions of miles of lines.

Look at the numbers and it's not so crazy. This is a last mile issue, not a full grid issue.

Americans like to think they’re a special case.

Houston has a higher density than say Magdeburg

Re: Houston-area residents enter sixth day without power, air conditioning

#260

Post by bravetraveler »

blantonl wrote: post #15
RheingoldRiver wrote: post #9

I was there last weekend & for the day of the hurricane. This was just a cat 1 hurricane at the time it passed through Houston, and there was SO much damage. I can't imagine the city is remotely prepared for (god forbid, and idk how likely it is that far inland anyway) a cat 4 or 5. We were staying in a hotel that had a backup generator, but every single other building that was visible from our hotel had lost power d…

This wasn't a "grid issue." It is a last-mile issue. It's specifically an issue with the sheer amount of above ground power lines and population density. There is no easy fix, preparation, or practically anything else that can be done to prevent something like this. Plus, what causes the same amount of power outages (wind damage) isn't going to be different between 90mph winds and 150 mph winds. The effects are going…

This last mile - lines/etc - are also partly what make trivial matters like 'extended cold periods' a problem. I hate it here in TX
Post reply on HN