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Free-threaded CPython is ready to experiment with

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Re: Free-threaded CPython is ready to experiment with

#31

Post by ameliaquining »

Sparkyte wrote: post #23

My body is ready. I love python because the ease of writing and logic. Hopefully the more complicated free-threaded approach is comprehensive enough to write it like we traditionally write python. Not saying it is or isn't I just haven't dived enough into python multithreading because it is hard to put those demons back once you pull them out.

The semantic changes are negligible for authors of Python code. All the complexity falls on the maintainers of the CPython interpreter and on authors of native extension modules.

Re: Free-threaded CPython is ready to experiment with

#34

Post by GTP »

nine_k wrote: post #20
GTP wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get how this optional static typing works. I had a quick look at [1], and it begins with a note saying that Python's runtime doesn't enforce types, leaving the impression that you need to use third-party tools to do actual type checking. But then it continues just like Python does the check. Consider that I'm not a Python programmer, but the main reason I stay away from it is the lack of a proper type system.…

At MPOW most Python code is well-type-hinted, and mypy and pyright are very helpful at finding issues, and also for stuff like code completion and navigation, e.g. "go to the definition of the type of this variable". Works pretty efficiently. BTW, Typescript also does not enforce types at runtime. Heck, C++ does not enforce types at runtime either. It does not mean that their static typing systems don't help during a…

> BTW, Typescript also does not enforce types at runtime. Heck, C++ does not enforce types at runtime either. It does not mean that their static typing systems don't help during at development time.

Speaking of C here as I don't have web development experience. The static type system does help, but in this case, it's the compiler doing the check at compile time to spare you many surprises at runtime. And it's part of the language's standard. Python itself doesn't do that. Good that you can use external tools, but I would prefer if this was part of Python's spec.

Edit: these days I'm thinking of having a look at Mojo, it seems to do what I would like from Python.

Re: Free-threaded CPython is ready to experiment with

#35

Post by VeejayRampay »

nine_k wrote: post #6

Python 3 progress so far: [x] Async. [x] Optional static typing. [x] Threading. [ ] JIT. [ ] Efficient dependency management.

the efficient dependency management is coming, the good people of astral will take care of that with the uv-backed version of rye (initially created by Armin Ronacher with inspirations from Cargo), I'm really confident it'll be good like ruff and uv were good

Re: Free-threaded CPython is ready to experiment with

#36

Post by Galanwe »

Arcanum-XIII wrote: post #30
Galanwe wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure this is still a valid critic of Python in 2024. Between pip, poetry and pyproject.toml, things are now quite good IMHO.

All is well, then, one day, you have to update one library. Some days later, in some woods or cave, people will hear your screams of rage and despair.

Been using python for 15 years now, and these screams were never heard.

Dev/test with relaxed pip installs, freeze deployment dependencies with pip freeze/pip-tools/poetry/whateveryoulike, and what's the problem?

Re: Free-threaded CPython is ready to experiment with

#37

Post by VeejayRampay »

GTP wrote: post #11
nine_k wrote: post #6

Python 3 progress so far: [x] Async. [x] Optional static typing. [x] Threading. [ ] JIT. [ ] Efficient dependency management.

I don't get how this optional static typing works. I had a quick look at [1], and it begins with a note saying that Python's runtime doesn't enforce types, leaving the impression that you need to use third-party tools to do actual type checking. But then it continues just like Python does the check. Consider that I'm not a Python programmer, but the main reason I stay away from it is the lack of a proper type system.…

python will never be "properly typed"

what it has is "type hints" which is way to have richer integration with type checkers and your IDE, but will never offer more than that as is

Re: Free-threaded CPython is ready to experiment with

#38

Post by est »

jolux wrote: post #9
janice1999 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure what this list means, there are successful languages without these feature. Also Python 3.13 [1] has an optional JIT [2], disabled by default. [1] https://docs.python.org/3.13/whatsnew/3.13.html [2] https://peps.python.org/pep-0744/

The successful languages without efficient dependency management are painful to manage dependencies in, though. I think Python should be shooting for a better package management user experience than C++.

Deps in CPython are more about .so/.dll problem, not much can be done since stuff happens outside python itself.

Re: Free-threaded CPython is ready to experiment with

#39

Post by hot_gril »

GTP wrote: post #11
nine_k wrote: post #6

Python 3 progress so far: [x] Async. [x] Optional static typing. [x] Threading. [ ] JIT. [ ] Efficient dependency management.

I don't get how this optional static typing works. I had a quick look at [1], and it begins with a note saying that Python's runtime doesn't enforce types, leaving the impression that you need to use third-party tools to do actual type checking. But then it continues just like Python does the check. Consider that I'm not a Python programmer, but the main reason I stay away from it is the lack of a proper type system.…

I think static typing is a waste of time, but given that you want it, I can see why you wouldn't want to use Python. Its type-checking is more half-baked and cumbersome than other languages, even TS.

Re: Free-threaded CPython is ready to experiment with

#40

Post by hot_gril »

VeejayRampay wrote: post #37
GTP wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get how this optional static typing works. I had a quick look at [1], and it begins with a note saying that Python's runtime doesn't enforce types, leaving the impression that you need to use third-party tools to do actual type checking. But then it continues just like Python does the check. Consider that I'm not a Python programmer, but the main reason I stay away from it is the lack of a proper type system.…

python will never be "properly typed" what it has is "type hints" which is way to have richer integration with type checkers and your IDE, but will never offer more than that as is

It is properly typed: it has dynamic types :)
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