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Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

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Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#51

Post by dredmorbius »

btbuildem wrote: post #27
legitster wrote: post #13

These are beautiful - but the project kind of misrepresents how ancient measurements worked. Outside of building sites in Medieval Europe it would be common for the head architect to have the outline of his hand on a sign. The idea being that even "crude" measurements like hand-widths and thumb lengths would be universally agreed upon for the project. You can see some of this at work watching documentaries of the Gué…

That's a great observation! Measuring with ruler / tape / string isn't the most reliable way to do it -- using a full length of something like a stick, is. This is the basis of the simplest of jigs: cut a piece, then cut all the other pieces you want to be like that piece, by using that piece as a guide. The need for specific measurements seems to have arisen alongside industrialization of building processes - in the…

The human body was generally available to those making measurements, and (by the standards of the time) roughly sufficient for most purposes. An inch (of bronze or steel), a yard (of cloth), or fathom (of depth, measured by a sounding line) would have been immediately accessible to a tinker, a tailor, or sailor. (Units of measures applicable to spies are left as an exercise to the reader.)

Metric measurements are standard but not convenient, particularly in a world without rapid cheap communication or standardised industry. Virtually everything built was a one-off and fit-to-fashion on site.

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#52

Post by heikkilevanto »

I have two anecdotes. One is a shipyard in Denmark, possibly in the 1700's, where the master builder would hammer a stake in the ground, walk as many steps as needed for that ship, and hammer another stake. The rest would follow geometrically.

The other is a builder of harpsichords, late 1900's, who explained that when starting a new instrument, he would define the "inch" for that one, the width of the "white" keys. 8 of those would make the width of an octave, and the usual 5-6 octaves would give the width of the keyboard. From that he could figure out the length of the instrument, and the curve of the side. All this with nothing more than a compass and a straight edge. He claimed it was the more historical way to do it, as they did in the 1600's. His instruments were well regarded by musicians today, and fetched a good price.

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#53

Post by EnigmaFlare »

saalweachter wrote: post #41
jzxy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It wasn't until empires and mass manufacturing that the need for "standardized" measurements. You have the cause and effect backwards. Mass manufacturing didn't create a need for standardized measurements. Standardized measurements allowed the existence of mass manufacturing. Mass manufacturing wasn't even close to a possibility before that. Measurements weren't created for a need that didn't even exist yet. You can…

It's a shame that we entered the era of precision a century or so before we got some good science. We could have chosen so many different, cooler distance units than "one ten-millionth the distance between the North Pole and the equator, on a line passing through Paris". We could have chosen 1 nano-lightsecond! We could have chosen the wavelength of the hydrogen line! We had options, but we didn't even know them in 1…

Instead of having Avogadro's number at all, chemists could just count using numbers like we do for everything else. We already have the prefixes to make 10^+/-24 easy. No need to re-define it, just stop using it.

It's nothing more than a conversion factor between two parallel unit systems that somehow both coexist within SI.

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#54

Post by throwup238 »

myself248 wrote: post #39
fusslo wrote: post #8

thats a really cool project. I would've loved making them while taking my history electives in college. There's something really nice about making something that gets tied to what you're learning. Since they talk about Roubo, can I ask if any other amateur woodworkers just don't use a ruler? I used to 3d model everything and make simple dimension drawings for parts. Since I started mostly using hand tools I just stop…

You're not the only one. https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/markin...

I like these: https://www.rockler.com/rockler-story-stick-kit

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#55

Post by Arrath »

heikkilevanto wrote: post #52

I have two anecdotes. One is a shipyard in Denmark, possibly in the 1700's, where the master builder would hammer a stake in the ground, walk as many steps as needed for that ship, and hammer another stake. The rest would follow geometrically. The other is a builder of harpsichords, late 1900's, who explained that when starting a new instrument, he would define the "inch" for that one, the width of the "white" keys.…

> late 1900's

>:(

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#56

Post by [deleted] »

legitster wrote: post #22
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fact in the US it wasn't until Herbert Hoover, in his capacity as Secretary of Commerce in the 1920's, standardized everything from pipe gauges and thread counts to bedpans and light sockets. He published a government schedule which soon got adopted nationwide. It enabled a farmer in Wyoming to order parts from a manufacturer in Massachusetts and they would fit when they arrived.

Although, it should be noted that the standardization of measurements themselves was mostly done by the founding of the country. Authority of the government to "fix the Standard of Weights and Measures" is in the constitution. From its founding, the US had one of the largest contiguously agreed upon measurement system in the world, sidestepping the problems of European measurement systems which changed border to bord…

[deleted]

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#57

Post by motohagiography »

these are great. geometry is culture. there are some mythical proportions measured in cubits, handbreadths and other units of measurement (pillars of the first temple at jerusalem, etc) that put reading the old testament in perspective, where they were writing about physical objects we can use those measurements to reason about today.

I hope there are more editions of these rules and related ones in the future.

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#58

Post by gerdesj »

heikkilevanto wrote: post #52

I have two anecdotes. One is a shipyard in Denmark, possibly in the 1700's, where the master builder would hammer a stake in the ground, walk as many steps as needed for that ship, and hammer another stake. The rest would follow geometrically. The other is a builder of harpsichords, late 1900's, who explained that when starting a new instrument, he would define the "inch" for that one, the width of the "white" keys.…

Your first bloke defined two parameters - one really: length. A boat needs rather more parameters and it is not following "geometrically".

Your harpsichord maker is also a fantastic beast.

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#59

Post by fusslo »

mauvehaus wrote: post #28
fusslo wrote: post #8

thats a really cool project. I would've loved making them while taking my history electives in college. There's something really nice about making something that gets tied to what you're learning. Since they talk about Roubo, can I ask if any other amateur woodworkers just don't use a ruler? I used to 3d model everything and make simple dimension drawings for parts. Since I started mostly using hand tools I just stop…

Furniture maker (professionally): I typically do Sketchup for design drawings because it's easier for clients to see things in 3D. Do I love it? No, but I'm reasonably quick using it, so I do. It's also a hell of a lot easier to make big changes than working on paper. Shop drawings I do by hand. How much measuring I do depends greatly on how what I'm trying to achieve: If the piece is based heavily on proportions and…

thanks for the reply. incredible work
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