Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools • Hacker News Board

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#21

Post by itishappy » Thu, Jul 11, 2024, 6:14 PM UTC

BitwiseFool wrote: post #4

While I am no apologist for the measurement system we use here in the United States, I realized something interesting when trying to explain why almost all of our units consist of easily divisible sub-units. Imagine you needed to split something up into halves, thirds, fourths, sixths, etc.. If you imagine doing this with paper, it's fairly easy. Now imagine Metric, and the need to split something into 10 even pieces…

> If you imagine doing this with paper, it's fairly easy.

Halves and forths are easy. Thirds, fifths, and sixths are not.

There are constructions for the odd fractions, but they're not particularly intuitive.

https://abrashiorigami.com/dividing-paper-into-thirds-fifths...

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#22

Post by legitster » Thu, Jul 11, 2024, 6:15 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #19

legitster wrote: post #13

These are beautiful - but the project kind of misrepresents how ancient measurements worked. Outside of building sites in Medieval Europe it would be common for the head architect to have the outline of his hand on a sign. The idea being that even "crude" measurements like hand-widths and thumb lengths would be universally agreed upon for the project. You can see some of this at work watching documentaries of the Gué…

In fact in the US it wasn't until Herbert Hoover, in his capacity as Secretary of Commerce in the 1920's, standardized everything from pipe gauges and thread counts to bedpans and light sockets. He published a government schedule which soon got adopted nationwide. It enabled a farmer in Wyoming to order parts from a manufacturer in Massachusetts and they would fit when they arrived.

Although, it should be noted that the standardization of measurements themselves was mostly done by the founding of the country. Authority of the government to "fix the Standard of Weights and Measures" is in the constitution.

From its founding, the US had one of the largest contiguously agreed upon measurement system in the world, sidestepping the problems of European measurement systems which changed border to border - even predating the official adoption of the Metric system in France. And it's largely why it's stuck around until today.

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#23

Post by jzxy » Thu, Jul 11, 2024, 6:19 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #13

These are beautiful - but the project kind of misrepresents how ancient measurements worked. Outside of building sites in Medieval Europe it would be common for the head architect to have the outline of his hand on a sign. The idea being that even "crude" measurements like hand-widths and thumb lengths would be universally agreed upon for the project. You can see some of this at work watching documentaries of the Gué…

>It wasn't until empires and mass manufacturing that the need for "standardized" measurements.

You have the cause and effect backwards. Mass manufacturing didn't create a need for standardized measurements. Standardized measurements allowed the existence of mass manufacturing. Mass manufacturing wasn't even close to a possibility before that. Measurements weren't created for a need that didn't even exist yet. You can read on the history of the various systems of measurements and their motivations that they weren't exactly concerned with ideas of "mass production".

>In 1669, Jean Picard, a French astronomer, was the first person to measure the Earth accurately. In a survey spanning one degree of latitude, he erred by only 0.44%

1669! that's long before any attempt at building mechanization of labor.

It's like how a lot of math was seemingly useless and existed just for its own sake until people found real applications for certain algorithms.

The obsession of a handful of people towards precision measurement is what allowed the industrial civilization to truly emerge.

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#24

Post by ne8il » Thu, Jul 11, 2024, 6:23 PM UTC

Brendan (the maker of these) is a fascinating, very smart guy. He's a very talented woodworker and wrote a great book on James Krenov. I was lucky to take a class he taught a few years ago, and I enjoy following his Instagram page to see the new projects he has going on.

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#25

Post by foreigner » Thu, Jul 11, 2024, 6:26 PM UTC

[flagged]

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#26

Post by davidgay » Thu, Jul 11, 2024, 6:34 PM UTC

mitthrowaway2 wrote: post #12

BitwiseFool wrote: post #4

While I am no apologist for the measurement system we use here in the United States, I realized something interesting when trying to explain why almost all of our units consist of easily divisible sub-units. Imagine you needed to split something up into halves, thirds, fourths, sixths, etc.. If you imagine doing this with paper, it's fairly easy. Now imagine Metric, and the need to split something into 10 even pieces…

I don't think objections to US customary units are because of base-12 vs base-10. I think it's because it's 12 inches to 1 foot, 3 feet to 1 yard, 1760 yards to 1 mile, 3 tsp to 1 tbsp, 2 tbbsp to 1 fl. oz, 40 fl. oz per quart, 2 quarts per pint, 4 quarts per gallon, 31.5 gallons per barrel (or 42 if oil), 16 ounces per pound, 2000 pounds per ton (or 2240 if long ton), 1000 mil per inch, and so on. It's not just a ba…

> 40 fl. oz per quart,

That's the imperial quart. The US quart is 32 fl. oz.

And, of course, the US fl. oz is slightly different from the imperial one. And neither is 1 (weight) oz of water (but at least the weight ozes are the same in US and imperial...).

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#27

Post by btbuildem » Thu, Jul 11, 2024, 6:39 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #13

These are beautiful - but the project kind of misrepresents how ancient measurements worked. Outside of building sites in Medieval Europe it would be common for the head architect to have the outline of his hand on a sign. The idea being that even "crude" measurements like hand-widths and thumb lengths would be universally agreed upon for the project. You can see some of this at work watching documentaries of the Gué…

That's a great observation! Measuring with ruler / tape / string isn't the most reliable way to do it -- using a full length of something like a stick, is. This is the basis of the simplest of jigs: cut a piece, then cut all the other pieces you want to be like that piece, by using that piece as a guide.

The need for specific measurements seems to have arisen alongside industrialization of building processes - in the times before that, measurements were relative (eg, piece A is 3x piece B, etc). It's telling that a lot of the "traditional" measurements we have (looking at you, metric system) refer to body parts. We used to measure things in relation to the human body.

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#28

Post by mauvehaus » Thu, Jul 11, 2024, 6:44 PM UTC

fusslo wrote: post #8

thats a really cool project. I would've loved making them while taking my history electives in college. There's something really nice about making something that gets tied to what you're learning. Since they talk about Roubo, can I ask if any other amateur woodworkers just don't use a ruler? I used to 3d model everything and make simple dimension drawings for parts. Since I started mostly using hand tools I just stop…

Furniture maker (professionally):

I typically do Sketchup for design drawings because it's easier for clients to see things in 3D. Do I love it? No, but I'm reasonably quick using it, so I do. It's also a hell of a lot easier to make big changes than working on paper.

Shop drawings I do by hand. How much measuring I do depends greatly on how what I'm trying to achieve:

If the piece is based heavily on proportions and symmetry[0], I'll use dividers a lot more than a ruler.

If I need to hit certain measurements for practical reasons, it's a bit of both.

If I'm strictly reproducing a design model, I'll have the ruler out pretty exclusively. Sketchup does do division/even spacing with array copy, so I can usually work out what I want pretty closely.

If I'm reproducing a piece from a photo[1], it's a lot of both, some educated rounding to a reasonable fraction, and I've gone entirely crosseyed by the end of the day.

Occasionally, I'll do something almost entirely without firm measurements. My tool tote is based on my hand span (because that's about the width you can comfortably carry along your side), and there were no drawings to speak of. Everything was dimensioned at the bench. Stick chairs and stools tend to be pretty similar; if I'm building them out of scrap, I design around the available wood. I'm not sure I'd build any for money yet though. I have a few more learning experiences in me before I do that.

[0] https://www.longwalkwoodworking.com/cabinet-on-stand

[1] https://www.longwalkwoodworking.com/federalclock

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#29

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 11, 2024, 6:44 PM UTC

btbuildem wrote: post #27

legitster wrote: post #13

These are beautiful - but the project kind of misrepresents how ancient measurements worked. Outside of building sites in Medieval Europe it would be common for the head architect to have the outline of his hand on a sign. The idea being that even "crude" measurements like hand-widths and thumb lengths would be universally agreed upon for the project. You can see some of this at work watching documentaries of the Gué…

That's a great observation! Measuring with ruler / tape / string isn't the most reliable way to do it -- using a full length of something like a stick, is. This is the basis of the simplest of jigs: cut a piece, then cut all the other pieces you want to be like that piece, by using that piece as a guide. The need for specific measurements seems to have arisen alongside industrialization of building processes - in the…

[deleted]

Re: Rulers of the Ancient World: period correct measuring tools

#30

Post by legitster » Thu, Jul 11, 2024, 6:45 PM UTC

jzxy wrote: post #23

legitster wrote: post #13

These are beautiful - but the project kind of misrepresents how ancient measurements worked. Outside of building sites in Medieval Europe it would be common for the head architect to have the outline of his hand on a sign. The idea being that even "crude" measurements like hand-widths and thumb lengths would be universally agreed upon for the project. You can see some of this at work watching documentaries of the Gué…

>It wasn't until empires and mass manufacturing that the need for "standardized" measurements. You have the cause and effect backwards. Mass manufacturing didn't create a need for standardized measurements. Standardized measurements allowed the existence of mass manufacturing. Mass manufacturing wasn't even close to a possibility before that. Measurements weren't created for a need that didn't even exist yet. You can…

Chicken and egg maybe? It depends on where you define the start of industrialization. If you did not have cheap, available steel no one would have wasted it on pressure vessels and saws and instruments of precision. The innovations of Darby and Bessemer were done largely by hand-measured built machines.

Jean Picard's tools of measurement themselves would have been custom built by hand for him, and his results were measured in a very regional French measurement of feet. Standardization != precision.