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Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

chipsandcheese.com

11–20 of 182 posts

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#11
post #7
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people generally expected larger improvements between iterations. Intel and AMD continue to deliver sizeable performance and efficiency gains every 1-2 years while it feels like the Apple M-series isn't getting comparable gains. It definitely seems like Apple has suffered significant enough brain drain in recent years that they're finding it difficult to iterate on the M1.

Hasn't each gen been like 20-30% performance? Isn't that better than what AMD and Intel have managed?

I've been tracking the performance increase via GeekBench for M1, M2, M3 and now M4 and they are good incremental and consistent improvements:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i5dBe_rsiNaQATH-D-Pj...

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#12
post #10
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hasn't each gen been like 20-30% performance? Isn't that better than what AMD and Intel have managed?

Not really? https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/11/testing-apples-m3-pr... I've been waiting for an upgrade to my M1 and I still haven't seen one worth spending that much money on. I'd rather just sink that into upgrading my Windows tower.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i5dBe_rsiNaQATH-D-Pj...

Single core performance went from 2300 with the M1 to 3800 with the M4. That is a huge improvement for my workflow (large TypeScript mono repositories) which is dependent a lot of single core performance (even with parallel builds, because one rarely re-builds everything, rather hot reloads.)

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#13
post #4

The M4 is the highest single core CPU in the world and it’s in a ridiculously thin tablet without cooling. I don’t understand where this idea that Apple has lost most of their chip design talent and is in trouble rhetoric is coming from. Apple still makes the world’s most advanced and efficient consumer chips, years after the M1.

>The M4 is the highest single core CPU in the world and it’s in a ridiculously thin tablet

That's kind of the problem. The world's most powerful CPU is put in the world's most expensive and thinnest Netflix machine lol. Was the previous "thicker" M3 iPad holding anyone back?

All that power and I can't use it to compile the Linux kernel, I can't use it to play the latest Steam/GOG games, or run CAD simulations, because it needs to be behind the restrictive iPad OS AppStore walled garden where only code blessed by Apple can run.

Until it's put in a machine that can run Linux, it's more of a benchmarking flex than actually increasing productivity compared to previous M generations or the ARM/X86 competition that allows you to run any OS.

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#14
post #5

Get proper Linux support and the RISC-V variant they seemed to be working on and I'll buy the laptop ;-) I have no interest in Windows and even less so on ARM.

You don't want a RISC-V laptop. Not yet, at least. It will take quite some doing before those compete with x86_64/arm laptops.

Beautiful thing about Windows computers is that it's generally not too hard to make them into linux/BSD/etc computers. :)

Qualcomm [1] and some vendors [2][3] are making progress towards linux support though.

[1] https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-6.8-ARM-Changes

[2] https://www.phoronix.com/news/ASUS-Vivbook-S-15-Elite-X-Linu...

[3] https://www.phoronix.com/news/TUXEDO-Snapdragon-X-Elite

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#15
post #7
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people generally expected larger improvements between iterations. Intel and AMD continue to deliver sizeable performance and efficiency gains every 1-2 years while it feels like the Apple M-series isn't getting comparable gains. It definitely seems like Apple has suffered significant enough brain drain in recent years that they're finding it difficult to iterate on the M1.

Hasn't each gen been like 20-30% performance? Isn't that better than what AMD and Intel have managed?

"Up to 20-30% faster" or "20-30% faster than M1 released in November 2020. In almost the exact time frame AMD went from Zen3 -> Zen 5 (so one less generation) with a total gain of ~34% multicore and ~59% multicore gain. Intel went from ~10900k to ~14900k for a total of 76% single core and 128% multicore gain (i.e. more than double).

Two disclaimers before the conclusion: This is just from one lazy benchmark (Geekbench 6) and of the high performing model. That doesn't necessarily tell the whole story on both accounts, but it at least gives some context around general trends. E.g. passmark is going to say the differences on Intel are a little smaller, comparisons between Max and non-Max generations confuse multi core growth, and changes in low-mid market chips may follow a different slope than the high end products. Also there are other considerations like "and what about integrated graphics performance, which eats up a huge amount of die space and power budget?"

Anyways, my conclusion is that Apple is doing reasonably well with generational improvements vs the competition. Maybe not the absolute best, but not the worst. Being on top in the single core realm with a mobile passively cooled device makes equivalent gains all the more difficult but they're still doing it. Apple may be a victim of its own success in that the M1 from 2020 is still such a performance powerhouse that a 50% gain 4 generations later just isn't that interesting whereas with Intel a catchup of ~doubling multicore performance in the same time seems more impressive especially when M*'s story isn't as tantalizing on that half of things.

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#17
post #4

The M4 is the highest single core CPU in the world and it’s in a ridiculously thin tablet without cooling. I don’t understand where this idea that Apple has lost most of their chip design talent and is in trouble rhetoric is coming from. Apple still makes the world’s most advanced and efficient consumer chips, years after the M1.

[deleted]

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#18
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really? https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/11/testing-apples-m3-pr... I've been waiting for an upgrade to my M1 and I still haven't seen one worth spending that much money on. I'd rather just sink that into upgrading my Windows tower.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i5dBe_rsiNaQATH-D-Pj... Single core performance went from 2300 with the M1 to 3800 with the M4. That is a huge improvement for my workflow (large TypeScript mono repositories) which is dependent a lot of single core performance (even with parallel builds, because one rarely re-builds everything, rather hot reloads.)

These statements are orthogonal though i.e. 2300->3800 is still less than 20% per generation (17% per if you use the exact single core numbers for the M1 vs M4 iPad). That might be meaningful for your workload but it also means 20-30 percent per generation is quite a bit off.

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#19

> because there has not been any upstreamed Device Tree for this laptop, we were not able to get a Linux desktop installed Looking forward to tests of Linux on Arm UEFI ("SystemReady") for laptops based on Qualcomm Oryon.

I don't think any of the Linux GPU drivers are written to work with UEFI/ACPI.

Re: Qualcomm's Oryon core: A long time in the making

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i5dBe_rsiNaQATH-D-Pj... Single core performance went from 2300 with the M1 to 3800 with the M4. That is a huge improvement for my workflow (large TypeScript mono repositories) which is dependent a lot of single core performance (even with parallel builds, because one rarely re-builds everything, rather hot reloads.)

These statements are orthogonal though i.e. 2300->3800 is still less than 20% per generation (17% per if you use the exact single core numbers for the M1 vs M4 iPad). That might be meaningful for your workload but it also means 20-30 percent per generation is quite a bit off.

What increase has intel made over the same time period? Feels like a lot less. CPUs are mature technology.
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