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Ask HN: Why does no one seem to care that AI gives wrong answers?

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Re: Ask HN: Why does no one seem to care that AI gives wrong answers?

#52

> investors/founders/PMs don’t really care Garry Tan from YC is a great example of this. It's not that he doesn't care. It's just that he believes that the next model will be the one that fixes it. And companies that jump on board now can simply update their model and be in prime position. Similar to how Tesla FSD is always 2 weeks away from perfection and when it happens they will dominate the market. And because co…

> It's not that he doesn't care. It's just that he believes that the next model will be the one that fixes it.

No, what he does is he hopes that they can keep the hype alive long enough to cash out and then go to the next hype. Not only Garry Tan, but most VCs. That's the fundamental business model of VCs. That's also why Tesla FSD is always two weeks away. The gold at the end of the rainbow.

Re: Ask HN: Why does no one seem to care that AI gives wrong answers?

#53

We built a correctness checker for LLM-generated SQL code for the military before LLMs were commercially available, it is going live soon on http://sql.ai . Some people do care about this problem, but it is hard to solve; even for SQL alone, this requires significant computer algebra, automated theorem proving, having to define what 'correct' even means, and much else etc.

It's impossible to solve with LLMs. You keep adding RAGs until you're back at a non-LLM implementation. LLMs are probabilistic. Most programs, including SQL, need to be deterministic to provide value.

Re: Ask HN: Why does no one seem to care that AI gives wrong answers?

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that every AI-based company gets dunked-on for hallucination somewhat suggests that hallucination is a showstopper issue and in fact cannot be worked around.

A "showstopper" issue is a QA term-of-art indicating an issue that the project cannot be pushed to production as long as it exists. The AI project managers made the calculation that the proportion of hallucination issues (and their consequences) is within acceptable bounds. The tide is only turning recently on whether that's a good business tradeoff.

Where "acceptable bounds" equals whatever the current proportion is.

Re: Ask HN: Why does no one seem to care that AI gives wrong answers?

#55
I found LLMs to be quite useful, so the time saved is worth the effort to double check answers.

Granted it might have to do with how I use LLMs. If you just blindly ask a question you increase the chance of hallucinations. If you give a lengthy input, and the output is highly dependent on the input than you will get better results. Think email re-writing, summarizing, translation.

Re: Ask HN: Why does no one seem to care that AI gives wrong answers?

#56

Personally, I and people I've spoken with use LLMs less and less because of how often they're wrong. The other day I asked ChatGPT about a specific built-in method in Java and it told me that it couldn't do one specific thing. I was already using it in that context so I pushed back and it said "Oh yeah you're right, sorry" I feel like I can't trust anything it says. Mostly I use it to parse things I don't understand…

Hype is fading, so usage decreases.

But you must admit that it is still useful, and usage will not drop to zero.

Re: Ask HN: Why does no one seem to care that AI gives wrong answers?

#57
My graduate research was in this area. My lab group developed swarm robots for various terrestrial and space exploration tasks. I spent a lot of time probing why our swarm robots developed pathological behavioral breakdowns - running away from construction projects, burying each other, etc... The issue was so fundamental to our machine learning methods that we never found a way to reliably address it—by the time I left, anyway. No matter how we reconfigured the neural networks, trained, punished, deprived, or implemented forced forgetting or fine-tuned, nothing seemed to eliminate the catastrophic behavioral edge cases—nothing except for dramatically simplifying the neural networks.

Once I started seeing these behaviors in our robots, their appearance became much more pronounced every time I dug deeply into proposed ML systems: autonomous vehicles, robotic assistants, chatbots, and LLMs.

As I've had time to reflect on our challenges, I think that neural networks very quickly tend to overfit, and deep neural networks are incomparably overfitted. That condition makes them sensitive to hidden attractors that cause the system to break down when it is near these areas - catastrophically.

How do we define "near"? That would have to be determined using some topological method. But these systems are so complicated that we can't analyze their networks' topology or even brute-force probe their activations. Further, the larger, deeper, and more highly connected the network, the more challenging these hidden attractors are to find.

I was bothered by this topic a decade ago, and nothing I have seen today has alleviated my concern. We are building larger, deeper, and more connected networks on the premise that we'll eventually get to a state so unimaginably overfitted that it becomes stable again. I am unnerved by this idea and by the amount of money flowing in that direction with reckless abandon.

Re: Ask HN: Why does no one seem to care that AI gives wrong answers?

#58
post #18

I haven't found a human that answers every single question correctly, either. You know whom to ask a question based off that person's domain of expertise. Well, AI's domain of expertise is everything (supposedly). What gets difficult is evaluating the response, but let's not pretend that's any easier to do when interacting with a human. Experts give wrong answers all the time. It's generally other experts who point o…

This is a common argument to support the usage of LLMs: "Well, humans do it too."

We have many rules, regulations, strategies, patterns, and legions of managers and management philosophy for dealing with humans.

With humans, they're incorrect sometimes, yes, and we actively work around their failures.

We expect humans to develop over time. We expect them to join a profession and give bad answers a lot. As time goes on, we expect them to produce better answers, and if they don't we have remediations to limit the negative impact they have on our business processes. We fire them. We recommend they transfer to a different discipline. We recommend they go to college.

Comparing the successes and failures of LLMs to humans is silly. We would have fired them all by now.

The big difference is that computers CAN get every single question correctly. They ARE better than humans. LLMs are a huge step back from the benefits we got from computers.

Re: Ask HN: Why does no one seem to care that AI gives wrong answers?

#59
LLMs would be better nomenclature than AI in this context.

LLMs are not factual databases. They are not trained to retrieve or produce factual statements.

LLMs give you the most likely word after some prior words. They are incredibly accurate at estimating the probabilities of the next word.

It is a weird accident that you can use auto-regressive next word prediction to make a chat bot. It's even weirder that you can ask the chatbot questions and give it requests and it appears to produce coherent answers and responses.

LLMs are best thought of as language generators (or "writers") not as repositories of knowledge and facts.

LLM chatbots were a happy and fascinating (and for some, very helpful) accident. But they were not designed to be "factually correct" they were designed to predict words.

People don't care about (or are willing to accept) the "wrong answers" because there are enough use cases for "writing" that don't require factual accuracy. (see for instance, the entire genre of fiction writing)

I would argue that it is precisely LLMs ability to escape the strict accuracy requirements of the rest of CS and just write/hallucinate some fiction that is actually what makes this tech fascinating and uniquely novel.

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