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Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

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Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#21

Post by threeseed »

ur-whale wrote: post #17
crest wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because an incumbent exists ESA should give up, let their production and development pipeline rot away and "enjoy" the monopoly until it's too late to change something?

> So because an incumbent exists ESA should give up No. But they should learn their lesson and try to run instead of plodding along at a glacial pace. Oh but wait, they're govt funded with no success incentives other than some sort of vague sense of pride for a job well done. My money is on they're not going to come out ahead in the race.

> they're not going to come out ahead in the race

What race ? And if there is even one who cares ?

If EU pays 10x or 100x more to launch satellites the world isn't going to change all that much.

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#22

Post by isodev »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #19
jari_mustonen wrote: post #9

Even though this is not impressive compared to SpaceX, it is still essential that we have multiple actors building rockets. The competition makes sure that SpaceX needs to push the boundaries. Our future as a multi-planetary species is not dependent on a single actor. I'm hoping for some space race. It would be great if the United States would transfer a part of MIC funding to space exploration.

> it is still essential that we have multiple actors building rockets. The competition Twice the cost and at a small fraction of the frequency is competition in the way a rubber duck competes with a battle ship. Ariana 6 isn’t meaningful competition. ArianeSpace’s sole value is in its potential of becoming competition if one day sensibly managed.

It needs to start somewhere, right? We can't "just build" a NX-class starship without sciencing it out and R&D.

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#23

Post by haspok »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #14
nabla9 wrote: post #2

Ariane 6 exists so that European countries can get independent access to space between now and 2030s. The launch cost is almost 2x the cost of Falcon 9. Both platforms can lift 22t to LEO. 6-10 years from now Ariane Next/SALTO will aims replicate Falcon 9 efficiency and the design will be very similar: reusable, RP-1/LOX, Prometheus engine is similar reusable open cycle engine as Merlin with lots of 3D printed parts.

> 6-10 years from now Ariane Next/SALTO will aims replicate Falcon 9 efficiency and the design will be very similar …at which point it will be competing with Starship.

You don't know that. Starship does not exist.

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#24

Post by Larrikin »

ur-whale wrote: post #17
crest wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because an incumbent exists ESA should give up, let their production and development pipeline rot away and "enjoy" the monopoly until it's too late to change something?

> So because an incumbent exists ESA should give up No. But they should learn their lesson and try to run instead of plodding along at a glacial pace. Oh but wait, they're govt funded with no success incentives other than some sort of vague sense of pride for a job well done. My money is on they're not going to come out ahead in the race.

Why is it a race instead of being of public and international importance to have an alternative to a for profit company?

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#25

Post by pmontra »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #14
nabla9 wrote: post #2

Ariane 6 exists so that European countries can get independent access to space between now and 2030s. The launch cost is almost 2x the cost of Falcon 9. Both platforms can lift 22t to LEO. 6-10 years from now Ariane Next/SALTO will aims replicate Falcon 9 efficiency and the design will be very similar: reusable, RP-1/LOX, Prometheus engine is similar reusable open cycle engine as Merlin with lots of 3D printed parts.

> 6-10 years from now Ariane Next/SALTO will aims replicate Falcon 9 efficiency and the design will be very similar …at which point it will be competing with Starship.

It will still be building that knowledge inside Europe. Rocketry in general is deemed to be strategic so it's OK for any country to invest money in that, keep scientists and engineers on the subject, keep the industries alive, etc. It's not only about access to space, it's also about defense.

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#26

Post by kuschku »

nabla9 wrote: post #2

Ariane 6 exists so that European countries can get independent access to space between now and 2030s. The launch cost is almost 2x the cost of Falcon 9. Both platforms can lift 22t to LEO. 6-10 years from now Ariane Next/SALTO will aims replicate Falcon 9 efficiency and the design will be very similar: reusable, RP-1/LOX, Prometheus engine is similar reusable open cycle engine as Merlin with lots of 3D printed parts.

Ariane is one generation behind SpaceX, but that still puts them on second place. All while being independent from the whims of one single individual, ensuring independent launch capabilities for national security reasons.

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#27

Post by sschueller »

ur-whale wrote: post #17
crest wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So because an incumbent exists ESA should give up, let their production and development pipeline rot away and "enjoy" the monopoly until it's too late to change something?

> So because an incumbent exists ESA should give up No. But they should learn their lesson and try to run instead of plodding along at a glacial pace. Oh but wait, they're govt funded with no success incentives other than some sort of vague sense of pride for a job well done. My money is on they're not going to come out ahead in the race.

What race? The race to the price bottom and who can get us to the Kessler syndrom first?

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#28

Post by chgs »

haspok wrote: post #23
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 6-10 years from now Ariane Next/SALTO will aims replicate Falcon 9 efficiency and the design will be very similar …at which point it will be competing with Starship.

You don't know that. Starship does not exist.

a thing which can get into orbit and deploy objects exists

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#29

Post by sgt101 »

pmontra wrote: post #25
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 6-10 years from now Ariane Next/SALTO will aims replicate Falcon 9 efficiency and the design will be very similar …at which point it will be competing with Starship.

It will still be building that knowledge inside Europe. Rocketry in general is deemed to be strategic so it's OK for any country to invest money in that, keep scientists and engineers on the subject, keep the industries alive, etc. It's not only about access to space, it's also about defense.

Yes, and the industrial base that we are discussing is the one that builds the M51.3 which is fundamental for Europe. Existence is worth a lot.

Re: Europe's new heavy-lift rocket, Ariane 6, made its inaugural flight

#30

Post by flohofwoe »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #14
nabla9 wrote: post #2

Ariane 6 exists so that European countries can get independent access to space between now and 2030s. The launch cost is almost 2x the cost of Falcon 9. Both platforms can lift 22t to LEO. 6-10 years from now Ariane Next/SALTO will aims replicate Falcon 9 efficiency and the design will be very similar: reusable, RP-1/LOX, Prometheus engine is similar reusable open cycle engine as Merlin with lots of 3D printed parts.

> 6-10 years from now Ariane Next/SALTO will aims replicate Falcon 9 efficiency and the design will be very similar …at which point it will be competing with Starship.

Unless Europe wants to build a moon base or new ISS, won't a Starship competitor be a bit overkill for most payloads?
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