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No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

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Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#401

Post by nextaccountic »

markhahn wrote: post #199
drewg123 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realize that. But every distro I've used uses an initramfs, so unless you want to build your own kernels, you're stuck with it, and the painfully slow initramfs updates when you update packages, and dkms (or similar) updates the initramfs with the newer version of your out-of-tree modules.

why would initramfs updates be slow? do you mean that most initramfses are large? how much time are we talking about?

On Arch Linux, mkinitcpio is slow. I don't know why is that

Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#403

Post by LoganDark »

account42 wrote: post #302
LoganDark wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The command line can be part of the UEFI boot entry depending on your particular firmware. I think I can recompile the Linux kernel in around 15 minutes, but I have a 12400F. And 15 minutes is still 60 times longer than most people are willing to wait.

It wouldn't be impossible to change the default kernel commandline in the image without recompiling the whole kernel if anyone cared about making that fast.

I mean, even the initramfs can be stored in the ESP, can't it? How's that work with Secure Boot? (assuming you don't just use a shim that makes the TPM happy and then proceeds to not actually verify anything afterwards.)

Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#404

Post by pests »

kbolino wrote: post #386
pests wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't that program that does the linking of the pre built objects into the prepared kernel itself a violation?

IANAL but, for the most part, no. The "problem" with the GPL here arises not when you, the end user, take a piece of GPL-licensed software and combine it with other software, as is your GPL-protected right, but when you try to redistribute the result. You see, every end user has the same right to obtain all of the source code for GPL-licensed software that they receive, and for all of that source code to be licensed…

> So, a tool which makes all of this easier for you to do isn't circumventing any restriction

Is this the case though? I thought there was an argument that in order to create that tool - you would need enough knowledge that it would require you to basically create a derivative work.

Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#405

Post by ForOldHack »

Unix and Xenix did this. Single user mode. This is just a plea to have GNU/GRUB integrated into the kernel. I think it's a very good idea. Not original, but a seriously good idea. Add some more help and documentation. Pre-sets for most of the common scenaros. Multi-mode kernals? Kernals as a service?

And make no mistake, this is a compelling article.

Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#406

Post by prmoustache »

sqeaky wrote: post #399
prmoustache wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and the g had an iGPU. So you are contradicting yourself.

This is a fundamentally dishonest take. I provided three specific CPUs that varied by just the letter at the end where some had an iGPU and some didn't. I am being honest that some have it but that it isn't ubiquitous.

Well when you buy a desktop computer in 2024 their are usually 4 main ways:

- buying a ready made computer from a brand --> always come with an integrated GPU. Some will be even such a small form factor you have to use an external thunderbolt connected GPU if you want to use one.

- you build your computer yourself from parts --> you decide your motherboard and CPU, if VM passthrough is something you want to do, you just buy the parts that fits your use case

- you buy a configurable prebuilt computer from an online or local vendor --> you just have to choose the right option on the configuration tool so that you get a motherboard/cpu that offers integrated GPU.

- you buy second hand and you don't have an igpu: you buy the cheapest gpu available, usually around 10 to 25$ and you have your second GPU that the host can use.

Even when you are using laptop, having 2 GPUs is really not complicated in 2024, especially with thunderbolt external GPU cases/adapters.

Bottom line: you only have one GPU if you actively choose not to have 2.

Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#407

Post by michaelmrose »

prmoustache wrote: post #280
alerighi wrote: post #45

It's something you can do since a lot of years. I used to do so 10 years ago, when I've got the first motherboard with UEFI. But is it useful? It saves a minimal time in the boot sequence, but at what cost? The bootloader (being it grub, or something more simple as systemd-boot) is useful to me for a couple of reasons: - it allows to dual-boot with Windows easily: motherboard boot menu is often not easy to access, yo…

> - it allows to dual-boot with Windows easily: motherboard boot menu is often not easy to access, you need to perform some key combination in a short window, also modern bootloader save the last boot option such that if Windows reboots for an update Linux does not start Do people really dual boot a lot in 2024? It was a good use case when virtualization was slow but decades after the CPU started shipping with virtua…

> Do people really dual boot a lot in 2024

Seems the answer is yes. https://linux-hardware.org/?view=os_dual_boot_win

> there is virtually zero overhead in using VM nowadays

It might be more accurate to say that if you have a fast computer with lots of resources the experience running a basic desktop experience feels perceptibly native. This means it is a great answer to running windows software that neither needs a discrete GPU nor direct access to hardware on the minority of machines that are capable enough for this to be comfortable.

In actuality laptops are more common than desktops and the majority of computers have 8GB of RAM or less. 60% all form factors 66% laptops. This just isn't enough to comfortably run both.

https://linux-hardware.org/?view=memory_size&formfactor=all

Furthermore while most Linux users are comfortable installing and running windows and Linux whereas they may or may not be familiar with virtualization.

Also probably the number one reason someone might dual boot is probably still gaming which although light years ahead of years prior still doesn't have 100% compatibility with Windows. In theory GPU passthrough is an option but in reality this is a complicated niche configuration unsuitable for the majority of use cases. Anyone who isn't happy with steam/proton/wine is probably more apt to dual boot rather than virtualize.

Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#408

Post by michaelmrose »

prmoustache wrote: post #406
sqeaky wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a fundamentally dishonest take. I provided three specific CPUs that varied by just the letter at the end where some had an iGPU and some didn't. I am being honest that some have it but that it isn't ubiquitous.

Well when you buy a desktop computer in 2024 their are usually 4 main ways: - buying a ready made computer from a brand --> always come with an integrated GPU. Some will be even such a small form factor you have to use an external thunderbolt connected GPU if you want to use one. - you build your computer yourself from parts --> you decide your motherboard and CPU, if VM passthrough is something you want to do, you j…

The average PC is already a trade of that costs the average user around $800 and near 2/3 would need a substantial RAM upgrade a new GPU or both to make gaming through VM passthrough a reality. Most people aren't looking to buy new hardware and learn new tech to game.

It sounds like a useful toy for those whom already enjoy playing with their computer as much as playing with the game.

That said wouldn't limiting the host to integrated graphics (or whatever you get for $25) be a substantial limitation compared to using wine/proton or dual booting?

Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#409

Post by rini17 »

1oooqooq wrote: post #396
rini17 wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EFI stub is an existing kernel feature, not related to systemd-boot. Of course, everything can be wired together with systemd.

but it doesn't cover any of the unmentionable features that are so bad on grub. they will either be implemented in the kennel or the stub, because well, people will need dual boot, weird crypto, etc. exactly like happened with systemd. all the complexity was ignored.. then bolted on. do you miss crontab -e?

I do miss the ability to fix thing easily when crontab -e breaks. Oh, but systemd never breaks, okay.

Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#410

Post by p_l »

Denvercoder9 wrote: post #91
mjg59 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One easy way to meet Microsoft's boot time requirements is to skip input device enumeration, so there's a lot of machines meeting the Windows sticker requirements where entering the firmware either requires a bunch of failed boots or getting far enough into the boot process that you can be offered an opportunity to reboot into the setup menu.

Huh, today I learned. I'll consider myself lucky I didn't come across one of these machines yet.

If you want to have (legit) "Designed for Windows" and similar certification, you need to have an option to disable "fast boot" as well as option to enable it.

The fast boot involves skipping a bunch of slower pathways using saved knowledge of minimal set of devices to bring up to boot the OS in happy path, and only reset to "slow path" if it fails.

In fast boot, you're often unable to hit the button to enter the menu and at most get to it through windows "reboot to firmware" option.

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