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Anna's Archive Faces Millions in Damages and a Permanent Injunction

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Re: Anna's Archive Faces Millions in Damages and a Permanent Injunction

#171

Post by freejazz »

jerojero wrote: post #161
s1artibartfast wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physical property rights, which I strongly support, are not a law of nature. lions and tigers dont have property rights. They are a concept, but one is no more natural than another. matter exists, knowledge exists. exclusive monopoly to one or the other is no different. RE Cars: I think the analogy is apt, but you you ignore the time an effort that goes into creating one. Who would build or buy a car if someone could…

People have been writing books and creating art before intellectual property rights were enforced or even existed. The highest selling book in the world, the bible, is free of copyright. What incentive does an author have to write a book if they can't benefit from intellectual property? Perhaps self expression?

Yet you point to the bible

Re: Anna's Archive Faces Millions in Damages and a Permanent Injunction

#172

Post by freejazz »

laserlight wrote: post #143
s1artibartfast wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Maybe it does justify, if stealing doesn't mean depriving the owner of the food. They have less food than before you took it, how is that not depriving them? Who authors a book so that they can read it themselves? Is that a reasonable model of the world? >I want to create IP for free, but I don't have a surplus of time to create it. IP holders deprive me of the surplus, because it's going to reduce the value of thei…

> They have less food than before you took it, how is that not depriving them? That's my point. You keep conflating copyright infringement and stealing. Conceptually and legally, they are different. > How are they taking your surplus time? Nobody is forcing you to buy IP? In order to earn a living, I have to give away my rights to the IP that I produce. I don't have any time left to produce IP that I could give away…

> In order to earn a living, I have to give away my rights to the IP that I produce

You do not have to give away your rights to the IP that you produce. Which is an especially odd assertion to make as you insist that IP laws somehow make it more difficult to give a work away for free, as opposed to an alternative would require they be given away for free. One affords one the freedom to give away something for free if they so choose, the other requires it regardless of the author's interest.

Re: Anna's Archive Faces Millions in Damages and a Permanent Injunction

#173

Post by kragen »

computerfriend wrote: post #167
kragen wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

conflating them has been the official policy of both prc and taiwan since the prc was founded, as well as of the un, and it shows little sign of changing. in day-to-day life, there is an enormous flow of money, technical information, hardware, and skilled workers back and forth between taipei and shenzhen. taipei is a 20-minute flight away from fuzhou. the idea of maintaining a 'technology gap' between the prc and th…

Being ambiguous as to what "China" means is both vitally important for international relations and also generally unhelpful for the purpose of clear communication. Corporate (and other) espionage notwithstanding.

there was no ambiguity in my comment; i said 'chinese companies (in both prc and roc)' to ensure that i was communicating clearly

Re: Anna's Archive Faces Millions in Damages and a Permanent Injunction

#174

Post by aezart »

jacobr1 wrote: post #74
wongarsu wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A copyright term of 30 years after first publication, or 30 years after creation if no publication happens in this period. Ideally add some provision that ensures works are actually available after that period (similar to how many countries require all printed books to be submitted to the national library, but extend it to all media that achieves some benchmark of significance). Patent duration adjusted on a per-indu…

The best model I've seen for patents is increasingly escalating renewal fees for periodic terms. Such as get the first 5 years for very limited fees, every 5 years (up to some max such as 30) require 2-5x to renew or the patent expires. The exponentially increasing fees limit the hoarding of patents without direct economic benefits, but the high cost means you are able to provide offsetting social benefits while stil…

Another model I've seen for copyright is that you declare a "buyout price" for the copyright, the price at which you will release the work into the public domain. You pay 1% of that price every year as a renewal fee, with a 10 year limit.

Don't know if it would work but it's interesting.

Re: Anna's Archive Faces Millions in Damages and a Permanent Injunction

#175

Post by s1artibartfast »

laserlight wrote: post #142
s1artibartfast wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im not saying they are the same, and stated as much above. I am saying their relation to the government is the same. Government maintains both, and creates a market for them by doing so. No government> no private property> no goods for sale. I dont see how copyable is relevant at all.

> Im not saying they are the same, and stated as much above. > I am saying their relation to the government is the same. Then I don't have anything to object. But I suspect that the above points were clear in your comments. I don't think anybody here would object to the idea that physical property law and IP law have the same legal standing. What people object to are the principles of the IP law. EDIT: Following up w…

>Whether IP “theft” deprives owner of anything is questionable, even in the legal sense.

I think this is certainly settled in the legal sense. If an employee publishes source code to a product, or someone leaks a new movie, the courts dont have to debate if the owner has a legitimate grievance.

People can debate hypothetical alternatives to IP and their implications, but the status quo is clear. If you are using "questionable" not to mean uncertain, but in the literal sense, then sure (anything is questionable).

Re: Anna's Archive Faces Millions in Damages and a Permanent Injunction

#176

Post by marshray »

exe34 wrote: post #136
marshray wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assure you that 40 years ago chip companies were suing each other over IP just like today, if not worse. > using electron beams rather than multibillion-dollar euv fabs If this were possible it would be happening now.

> If this were possible it would be happening now. that's an odd thing to say. if it's possible now it should have been happening 10 years ago? when does the infinite regress stop?

At the point that all the other necessary IC manufacturing technologies became available?

Focused electron beams are far older than microchips.

Re: Anna's Archive Faces Millions in Damages and a Permanent Injunction

#177

Post by viking1066 »

freehorse wrote: post #65

This is the most ridiculous lawsuit ever. How is scrapping publicly available data "hacking"? How is less than 2TB of total bandwidth amount to millions of dollars of damage? Something is off here. Maybe there is some other motivation behind this, like drawing some legal representative of Anna's archive out? It makes no sense otherwise. Considering that high ranking officers of OCLC (taking a look over their executiv…

[How is scrapping publicly available data "hacking"?]

If only someone had told the person that may have caused the death of Aaron Schwarz!!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmen_Ortiz

Re: Anna's Archive Faces Millions in Damages and a Permanent Injunction

#178

Post by wayathr0w »

userbinator wrote: post #99
NuSkooler wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been trying to convince people of this for years. The problem is from my view, that people have the idea of IP being some sort of the American Dream ingrained in their heads that they can't even reason about anything else.

The problem is from my view, that people have the idea of IP being some sort of the American Dream ingrained in their heads that they can't even reason about anything else. Maybe it depends on which people you ask, but I don't think the American Dream is about IP at all --- but mostly freedom and independence.

Right, freedom and independence for the property owners. Whether that property is land, people, or "intellectual" is just as irrelevant to the Dreamer as if that property was obtained by deception or violence.

Re: Anna's Archive Faces Millions in Damages and a Permanent Injunction

#179

Post by snvzz »

freejazz wrote: post #170
snvzz wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

5 year, renewable twice to a maximum of 15 years, by registering and paying a nominal renewal fee (let's say $200), which is multiplied on the second renewal (let's say 3x or $600).

So after 15 years, I can start selling other people's movies and books? That seems odd.

Public domain seeming odd is a major problem.

Re: Anna's Archive Faces Millions in Damages and a Permanent Injunction

#180

Post by laserlight »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #175
laserlight wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Im not saying they are the same, and stated as much above. > I am saying their relation to the government is the same. Then I don't have anything to object. But I suspect that the above points were clear in your comments. I don't think anybody here would object to the idea that physical property law and IP law have the same legal standing. What people object to are the principles of the IP law. EDIT: Following up w…

>Whether IP “theft” deprives owner of anything is questionable, even in the legal sense. I think this is certainly settled in the legal sense. If an employee publishes source code to a product, or someone leaks a new movie, the courts dont have to debate if the owner has a legitimate grievance. People can debate hypothetical alternatives to IP and their implications, but the status quo is clear. If you are using "que…

> If an employee publishes source code to a product

What if that product has been obsolete for a long time? It is possible that there is no harm in an IP infringement case, whereas in property theft the amount of harm incurred is the property itself at the minimum. The amount of harm, if any, is questioned by the court.

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