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No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

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Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#331

Post by SAI_Peregrinus »

saghm wrote: post #77
Arnavion wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I imagine doing all this and tying it to systemd would generate some backlash like usual (although at this point, it seems unlikely that this would affect the plans given how few distros don't use systemd). systemd-boot is independent of systemd. It's called "systemd-" because it's under the same "group of core OS software" umbrella named "systemd", but otherwise it can be compiled independently, does not require th…

> systemd-boot is independent of systemd. It's called "systemd-" because it's under the same "group of core OS software" umbrella named "systemd", but otherwise it can be compiled independently, does not require the OS to be using systemd, etc. I think my confusion here is that calling something "systemd-" because it's part of the group called systemd is tautological; anything that's independent could just as easily…

Think of Systemd like GNU. They stick their name on all the software they make, even if it doesn't require only using their software. E.g. you can use GNU BASH without using GNU Sed. You can use Systemd-boot without using Systemd-journald.

Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#332

Post by lagniappe »

saltcured wrote: post #22

This reminds me of MILO for booting Linux on some (?) DEC Alpha systems back in the 90s. I don't remember much about the actual firmware anymore. Much like today with UEFI, the system had some low-level UI and built-in drivers to support diagnostics, disk and network booting, etc. MILO could be installed as a boot entry in the firmware-level boot menu. MILO was a sort of stripped down Linux kernel that used its drive…

I remember LILO LInux LOader

Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#333

Post by darby_nine »

> Although GRUB is quite versatile and capable, its features create complexity that is difficult to maintain

The same is true of the kernel. Perhaps redhat should abandon linux and commit to grub, which has the potential to boot an even more interesting or useful kernel.

Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#334

Post by [deleted] »

FeepingCreature wrote: post #251
kbolino wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the reason why "out-of-tree modules" exist, there's really no way to eliminate initramfs or something like it entirely in the general case. It might be possible to speed up the process of building the image (as long as the results are not "redistributed"), but this is a licensing and legal problem, not a technical one. FreeBSD is under a much more permissive non-copyleft license and so can legally bundle things…

You could probably build a "virtual initramfs": - linux tells the bootloader what folder the modules live - bootloader just puts them all in memory - linux just picks what it needs. That's all the initramfs is anyways. The point is there's no reason to prebuild an image from inside Linux, you can just have grub assemble a simple fs on the fly.

[deleted]

Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#335

Post by rini17 »

1oooqooq wrote: post #321

I will translate the doublespeak from redhat, which is similar to how they started to push systemd (really). > [grub] features create complexity that is difficult to maintain, and that both duplicate and lag behind the Linux kernel while also creating numerous security holes. No mention of the alternatives. No mention how useful are those features. Handwaiving "security" arguments. > Loaded by the EFI stub All the ta…

EFI stub is an existing kernel feature, not related to systemd-boot. Of course, everything can be wired together with systemd.

Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#336

Post by [deleted] »

1oooqooq wrote: post #321

I will translate the doublespeak from redhat, which is similar to how they started to push systemd (really). > [grub] features create complexity that is difficult to maintain, and that both duplicate and lag behind the Linux kernel while also creating numerous security holes. No mention of the alternatives. No mention how useful are those features. Handwaiving "security" arguments. > Loaded by the EFI stub All the ta…

[deleted]

Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#337

Post by rabf »

medstrom wrote: post #110
kbolino wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the reason why "out-of-tree modules" exist, there's really no way to eliminate initramfs or something like it entirely in the general case. It might be possible to speed up the process of building the image (as long as the results are not "redistributed"), but this is a licensing and legal problem, not a technical one. FreeBSD is under a much more permissive non-copyleft license and so can legally bundle things…

You're talking about something like ZFS, and I get that they can't just compile it in, but a distro can still ship the module, if I'm not mistaken. ...But to load it at boot time it absolutely must be done through an initramfs. Is that right?

As an aside I can heartedly recommend zfsbootmenu for anyone using zfs on linux:

https://github.com/zbm-dev/zfsbootmenu

Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#338

Post by qhwudbebd »

itvision wrote: post #300
account42 wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EFI can pass kernel parameters just fine, both in the default boot entries or when running the kernel from the EFI shell.

What about doing that once without using e.g. efibootmgr?

You can just pass the custom command line as you run the kernel from UEFI shell prompt, e.g.

  fs0:linux.efi root=/dev/nvme0n1p1 initrd=ramfs.img loglevel=2
In my experience the nuisance part is creating and editing boot entries, especially if you try to set them up from the UEFI shell, so I tend to compile any initramfs and the default kernel command line into my kernel so I can drop it at /boot/efi/boot/bootx64.efi and minimise contact with the UEFI monstrosity.

Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#339

Post by rabf »

E39M5S62 wrote: post #179
zdw wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, Grub has a read-only ZFS implementation to allow booting: https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/grub.git/tree/include/grub...

Ditch grub and use Linux to boot Linux on ZFS - https://docs.zfsbootmenu.org/en/v2.3.x/ .

This bootloader gives you some amazing features such as booting distros from different zfs datasets or snapshots and chrooting into your system. Really does make grub and ext4 feel like the stoneage.

Re: No more boot loader: Please use the kernel instead

#340

Post by slackfan »

lagniappe wrote: post #332
saltcured wrote: post #22

This reminds me of MILO for booting Linux on some (?) DEC Alpha systems back in the 90s. I don't remember much about the actual firmware anymore. Much like today with UEFI, the system had some low-level UI and built-in drivers to support diagnostics, disk and network booting, etc. MILO could be installed as a boot entry in the firmware-level boot menu. MILO was a sort of stripped down Linux kernel that used its drive…

I remember LILO LInux LOader

LILO is still perfectly functional. Works great with my slackware install on my workstation.
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