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Rogue Amoeba responds to Phil Schiller

rogueamoeba.com

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Re: Rogue Amoeba responds to Phil Schiller

#81
post #66

Once more, a reminder that we - the hackers - should stop giving Apple our money. This is not the kind of computing environment we want to encourage. It's time for someone to re-edit Apple's 1984 commercial and swap the logos.

> Once more, a reminder that we - the hackers - should stop giving Apple our money. This is not the kind of computing environment we want to encourage. And hackerism is not the computing environment Apple wants to encourage. Besides the obvious benefit of more control = better stronghold of their market, Apple is also philosophically in favor of closed, well defined systems and minimal end user confusion, not pro ope…

If anything, I think it's truly sad that, given all the great things Apple has made, their legacy seems to be that closed and proprietary is better. It's the IT equivalent of "greed is good".

iOS would be just as integrated and nice if Apple released it as Open Source. But it would give people more choice, Apple would make make less money from it, and they would then be at a disadvantage compared to other companies that did control their entire ecosystem.

The problem is that closed, proprietary systems tend to create monopolies, and while the initial products may be great, monopolies are seldom good for customers.

The other mistake people make is thinking that closed or open is an either-or proposition. Apples nice iOS ecosystem wouldn't be destroyed overnight if they had a settings option marked "allow unsigned third party apps". Would that compromise their long term / whole stack vision? No.

Re: Rogue Amoeba responds to Phil Schiller

#82
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Removing an app from the store is one thing. Bending the truth or outright lying to your own customers in order to deflect blame for a decision that you made arbitrarily is entirely another. The fact that this nonsense is coming from a high-level Apple employee and not some customer service rep who can claim not to have known the truth makes it worse.

> Bending the truth or outright lying to your own customers in order to deflect blame for a decision that you made arbitrarily is entirely another. This entire sentence applies to Rogue Amoeba. The Airplay protocol has been reverse engineered years ago: it's basically RTSP with an encrypted stream. Creating an AirPlay audio receiver is currently subject to a license, and requires a private key. This key has been extr…

> When Schiller mentions private APIs, I believe he is not talking about an iPhone private API (which I'm positively sure Rogue Amoeba took great care of not using) but the remote AirPlay API, which they have no right to use without licensing.

A key is not an API. AirPlay is not an API. Full-stop.

Whether Rogue Amoeba was wrong to do this or whether Apple was right to ban them or whether reasonable observers could have predicted the banhammer is not at issue in this thread.

The issue is--Phil Schiller mislead a customer by describing Rogue Amoeba's behavior in a factually inaccurate way. Rogue Amoeba's blog post picks apart these inaccuracies like shooting fish in a barrel. I studied Phil's e-mail and I found exactly one sentence that I thought was accurate.

Sure, Apple can remove this app from the store. They should either just say that, or not respond to the customer at all. Somebody who has made a decision that he/she feels confident about has no need to slant the facts and make misleading statements. Whether or not Apple was right to do this independent of the fact that they were wrong to discredit Rogue Amoeba in an inaccurate way.

Re: Rogue Amoeba responds to Phil Schiller

#83
would this guy be ok if someone 'reverse engineered' his email password. Every product wants to protect its IP in some sense...google won't like if someone reverse engineered their search ranking, apple won't obviously like if someone hacked the iphone to run android, intel won't like if someone was able to reverse engineer the chip design and then sell it for a tenth of the cost..heck would these guys like if I was able to hack their app and bypass the license check?

Certain internal software API's are as much intellectual property as is the physical hardware design.

Re: Rogue Amoeba responds to Phil Schiller

#85
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except if you build a system to which millions (yes, millions) of people contribute in one way or another, pretend everyone's invited, and then decide to do something very self-righteous against the good of nearly anyone else involved just in order to feed your fat butt, then you are labelled an oppressive, opportunistic sociopath, and very rightly so.

The never pretended "everyone's invited". In fact, the first iOS didn't have third-party apps, and when the API finally appeared, it had very clear restrictions and a $99/year fee attached.

Sadly, that's not the way it's being marketed to the masses of developers. You're talking about what seems to be a technical detail to someone who's been corporate-brainwashed by the apple reality distortion field (maybe they're keeping Jobs in stasis in order not to lose it?). Then, SURPRISE!!! it's not such a technical detail after all, apple has tricked you so! It's like a surprise birthday party, except your gift is a burning bag of dog poo.

Typical corporate trickery. The reason a lot of people fall for it is because they have an open mind (definitely advocated by Apple) and therefore are gullible (definitely wanted by AAPL).

Having written something somewhere doesn't make you less of an asshole for handling in a dirty, asocial way.

Re: Rogue Amoeba responds to Phil Schiller

#86
post #80
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you also missed that it was a marketing slogan, and from a single campaign at that. Whereas Apple's focus of making simple computers/software for common people to use was a constant in their corporate story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCz_SiPD_X0 This wasn't just a single marketing campaign. It was THE marketing campaign. They even played the Steve Jobs narrated version at the Celebrating Steve event. After reading the Steve Jobs biography, I'm pretty sure that he and the others at Apple truly believe that this campaign represents Apples values.

>This wasn't just a single marketing campaign. It was THE marketing campaign.

Yeah, only it was only played once, decades ago, and nothing similar ever appeared in Apple ads since then.

Re: Rogue Amoeba responds to Phil Schiller

#87
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bending the truth or outright lying to your own customers in order to deflect blame for a decision that you made arbitrarily is entirely another. This entire sentence applies to Rogue Amoeba. The Airplay protocol has been reverse engineered years ago: it's basically RTSP with an encrypted stream. Creating an AirPlay audio receiver is currently subject to a license, and requires a private key. This key has been extr…

> When Schiller mentions private APIs, I believe he is not talking about an iPhone private API (which I'm positively sure Rogue Amoeba took great care of not using) but the remote AirPlay API, which they have no right to use without licensing. A key is not an API. AirPlay is not an API. Full-stop. Whether Rogue Amoeba was wrong to do this or whether Apple was right to ban them or whether reasonable observers could ha…

> A key is not an API.

I never said that.

> AirPlay is not an API.

AirPlay is a remote interface allowing a local application to control software on a remote device and stream data to it. I could implement it over HTTP as a RESTful API or whatever way I see fit and however simple and thin it would be†, it is still a way for applications to programmatically interact through an interface, hence, an API.

But again, this is not a problem since we can now safely implement interfaces without fear.

> Rogue Amoeba's blog post picks apart these inaccuracies like shooting fish in a barrel

... and (assuming that one thinks they scored) misses the elephant in the room. encrypted AirPlay audio streams. Rogue Amoeba knows about this. Apple knows about this. The only party concealing that fact is Rogue Amoeba, and they're entirely disingenuous about it. Since the very first developments (and really, since their announcement of the feature upon release) people have been wondering about the inclusion of the Apple private key; yet Rogue Amoeba stayed quiet on the subject. What I expected of them was at some point to directly answer the question "did we use the Apple private key?" with "yes" or "no".

Again, whether I put a license or not to use my PGP private key, no one has the right to pick up content encrypted for me. They basically created an eavesdropping piece of code.

And this is true for any licensing scheme. If there's no license satisfying my will, I have no right to take it anyway. Rogue Amoeba even goes to admit:

> While Apple licenses the ability for hardware manufacturers to play AirPlay audio, there is no such licensing program for software. When we inquired as to the possibility of this type of licensing being available for software manufacturers in the future, we were informed that it was unlikely.

Then they decided that since there's no license covering that case, they have the rights to build something respecting the AirPlay API (they do) and decrypt data with a stolen private key (they don't). And went on to build it and sell it, get kicked out, complain (rightfully so regarding opacity, laconic answers, and delays), and ignore the most critical part in all subsequent communications. How cool is that?

Now the fact that Apple has no explicit licensing scheme for software manufacturers is a blind spot of their part, but who honestly believes that hardware manufacturers implement their AirPlay receiving devices as pure hardware? I bet the licensing terms could apply just as well to pure software endpoints.

> Whether or not Apple was right to do this independent of the fact that they were wrong to discredit Rogue Amoeba in an inaccurate way.

And the same applies to Rogue Amoeba.

† AirTunes has a HTTP control channel used to negotiate details, AES key exchange via RSA encryption, a remote volume knob, metadata transmission, progress information, and a data channel for audio streaming that can be suspended without closing the stream. http://git.zx2c4.com/Airtunes2/about/

Re: Rogue Amoeba responds to Phil Schiller

#88
post #86
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCz_SiPD_X0 This wasn't just a single marketing campaign. It was THE marketing campaign. They even played the Steve Jobs narrated version at the Celebrating Steve event. After reading the Steve Jobs biography, I'm pretty sure that he and the others at Apple truly believe that this campaign represents Apples values.

> This wasn't just a single marketing campaign. It was THE marketing campaign. Yeah, only it was only played once, decades ago, and nothing similar ever appeared in Apple ads since then.

It was only played once? Can you give a reference to that?

The Think Different campaign was created in 1997 and ended in 2002, and I'm having a hard time believing they played that ad _once_.

Re: Rogue Amoeba responds to Phil Schiller

#89
post #71
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once more, a reminder that we - the hackers - should stop giving Apple our money. This is not the kind of computing environment we want to encourage. And hackerism is not the computing environment Apple wants to encourage. Besides the obvious benefit of more control = better stronghold of their market, Apple is also philosophically in favor of closed, well defined systems and minimal end user confusion, not pro ope…

The Mac was about a "computer for the rest of us" (ie simple users), and it remains the same now. Neither Mac, nor the 1984 ad was about tinkering. Perhaps you missed this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=No1MxAnHuJM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_Different "Here’s to the crazy ones. The misfits. The rebels. The troublemakers. The round pegs in the square holes. The ones who see things differently. They’re not fon…

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Re: Rogue Amoeba responds to Phil Schiller

#90

Once more, a reminder that we - the hackers - should stop giving Apple our money. This is not the kind of computing environment we want to encourage. It's time for someone to re-edit Apple's 1984 commercial and swap the logos.

We, the hackers, can do anything we like with Apple's gear. At the same time, Apple is under no obligation to make it easy for us to trample on their licensing deals for technologies that form part of Apple's unique selling proposition in a consumer's mind. AirPlay is so well implemented, consumers find it magical. To keep that mystique, Apple has a right to review and license AirPlay to those vendors that it finds a…

Bravo.
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