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Entering text in the terminal is complicated

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Re: Entering text in the terminal is complicated

#31

Post by delta_p_delta_x »

onehair wrote: post #22
Workaccount2 wrote: post #12

I have continually contented that the terminal is the single thing eternally condemning Linux to It's not just entering text. The entire experience is complicated. It's a Concorde jet cockpit[1] (with no labels too), when 95% of the population just wants to fly their drone around[2]. [1] https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2566f4c91b894e4169d77... [2] https://media.thedroningcompany.com/images/tincy/WQZpC56vqMp...

Doesn't Windows, the most popular OS out there, have a cmd.exe terminal thing? Why isn't that harming Windows? The Windows Command Prompt's default experience is worse than most if not all terminals you find on Linux systems. Even in play TTY, you're bound to find that the shortcuts the author mentioned work like a charm. To make my cmd.exe bearable I am using https://chrisant996.github.io/clink tl;dr You're comparin…

> Doesn't Windows, the most popular OS out there, have a cmd.exe terminal thing? Why isn't that harming Windows?

That's because the overwhelming majority of Windows usage, administration, and programming can be done almost entirely without ever touching the command-line, from Explorer.exe, Task Manager, Edge, Media Player, Paint, and built-in ZIP handling to the huge list of MMC snap-ins[1], and Visual Studio 2022.

> tl;dr You're comparing the choice of wheels on a plane to what makes planes sell more.

For the record, aeroplane cockpits have also gotten considerably simpler in the intervening half-century since Concorde and the first 747s. Here is an Airbus A350 cockpit[2].

[1]: https://serverfault.com/questions/158075/what-are-the-names-...

[2]: https://cdn.airplane-pictures.net/images/uploaded-images/201...

Re: Entering text in the terminal is complicated

#32

Post by a1o »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #12

I have continually contented that the terminal is the single thing eternally condemning Linux to It's not just entering text. The entire experience is complicated. It's a Concorde jet cockpit[1] (with no labels too), when 95% of the population just wants to fly their drone around[2]. [1] https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2566f4c91b894e4169d77... [2] https://media.thedroningcompany.com/images/tincy/WQZpC56vqMp...

I must be doing something wrong because I can just use Home to go to the beginning of the line and End to go to the end and I am pretty sure all the things that are easy to type as just as easy to type be in Gnome Terminal on Ubuntu or Windows Terminal on Windows.

The only place I need to know a bunch of weird shortcuts to figure things out is in the macOS terminal where everything is the less intuitive as possible.

Re: Entering text in the terminal is complicated

#33

Post by a1o »

onehair wrote: post #22
Workaccount2 wrote: post #12

I have continually contented that the terminal is the single thing eternally condemning Linux to It's not just entering text. The entire experience is complicated. It's a Concorde jet cockpit[1] (with no labels too), when 95% of the population just wants to fly their drone around[2]. [1] https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2566f4c91b894e4169d77... [2] https://media.thedroningcompany.com/images/tincy/WQZpC56vqMp...

Doesn't Windows, the most popular OS out there, have a cmd.exe terminal thing? Why isn't that harming Windows? The Windows Command Prompt's default experience is worse than most if not all terminals you find on Linux systems. Even in play TTY, you're bound to find that the shortcuts the author mentioned work like a charm. To make my cmd.exe bearable I am using https://chrisant996.github.io/clink tl;dr You're comparin…

Windows has a new terminal as default that is pretty cool - I install MSYS2 and set it in the new Windows Terminal and it's all good. Gnome Terminal and other terminals on Linux are also pretty cool too.

If you want the worst default terminal experience just boot macOS.

Re: Entering text in the terminal is complicated

#34

Post by hnlmorg »

> some things this post left out

+ wide characters

+ different keyboard modes causing the same key press to be presented by different ANSI escape sequences

+ different TTY states (eg local echo)

+ different OSs having subtly different syscalls for changing TTY states

+ differing support for terminal emulation (most these days roughly emulate xterm, but even there, none aim for 100% be compatibility)

+ a lack of a consensus on how to check for features provided by a terminal (some use ANSI escape sequences and wait for an ansi sequence to be returned from the term (that’s how the old VTs worked), some check $TERM (that’s how the first wave of terminal emulation was detected), some terms expose themselves as xterm and ignore the VT feature sequences, but set other env vars. it’s honestly a bigger mess than the user-agent string.

…and this is assuming a POSIX system. Things get doubly interesting when you throw Windows into the mix

Re: Entering text in the terminal is complicated

#36

Post by Mordisquitos »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #12

I have continually contented that the terminal is the single thing eternally condemning Linux to It's not just entering text. The entire experience is complicated. It's a Concorde jet cockpit[1] (with no labels too), when 95% of the population just wants to fly their drone around[2]. [1] https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2566f4c91b894e4169d77... [2] https://media.thedroningcompany.com/images/tincy/WQZpC56vqMp...

If the only Linux distributions were in the style of LFS, Gentoo and Arch* you would have a point, but as long as Ubuntu, Mint, OpenSUSE, Fedora, Manjaro and the myriad other user-friendly exist I fail to see the argument.

Yes, Ubuntu has a Concorde cockpit behind the scenes and yes, I can access it on my Ubuntu work* laptop and I am grateful that I have that choice. I would hate not having that level of control.

Meanwhile, my mother's laptop is also Ubuntu and my girlfriend's is Manjaro, and they are both perfectly happy "flying their drones around" without ever setting foot in the Concorde cockpit.

(*) I use Arch btw

Re: Entering text in the terminal is complicated

#37

Post by a1o »

jorams wrote: post #29
eviks wrote: post #18

> took me maybe 15 years of using the terminal every single day to get used to using Ctrl+A to go to the beginning of the line (or Ctrl+E for the end). And the curse of bad defaults strikes again (daily). After the realization that this is a weird default you don't train yourself for 15 years, but change it to your comfortable/common keybinds!

I wonder what terminal that is, because the Home and End keys, which I'm pretty sure are the expected alternatives, work fine in every terminal for me on Linux.

I have the same experience.

Re: Entering text in the terminal is complicated

#38

Post by squigz »

0cf8612b2e1e wrote: post #28
eequah9L wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I have my doubts about the claim. I forgot what I read way back when as an intro book, but I suspect it was more like a month in my case, if that. But I remember having been surprised at various points that there was an undo (C-_), and a clipboard (C-y to paste) including a history (M-y). So yeah, I guess it depends on the scope. Maybe it's a hyperbole? Dunno, doesn't really read that way.

How can you discover something on the terminal itself? You fall into a pattern and stick with it. It is only if you get out of band information that you can learn these tricks.

Bit confused by this comment. I don't think anybody suggested you're going to find these things solely by interacting with the terminal - but rather through "out of band information" as you put it, which in GP's case, as he said, was a book. The surprising part of TFA, and replies to my comment - to me anyway - is how one can go so many years without picking up that information.

Re: Entering text in the terminal is complicated

#39

Post by glial »

onehair wrote: post #24
glial wrote: post #2

Nice to see this writeup. Entering text into the terminal, and copying output out, is a huge barrier to entry for beginners. Windows terminals in particular feel downright antagonistic to use.

cmd.exe or the new https://github.com/microsoft/terminal ?

I haven't used the new one! Will check it out, thanks.

Re: Entering text in the terminal is complicated

#40

Post by squigz »

Waterluvian wrote: post #16
squigz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

95% of the population doesn't need to use the terminal.

If you love cars, popping the hood is probably part of the experience. For everyone else, it’s the sign of a very frustrating day ahead. As computer lovers, I feel we must endeavour to remain mindful that almost everyone else aren’t like us. They’re trying to get a task done. They don’t want to maintain or talk with the computer.

> As computer lovers, I feel we must endeavour to remain mindful that almost everyone else aren’t like us. They’re trying to get a task done. They don’t want to maintain or talk with the computer.

This was pretty much my point. 95% of the population isn't like us, and don't need to interact with the terminal; thus, thinking the terminal is what's keeping Linux back doesn't make much sense to me

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