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For the first time in more than 150 years, Alberta's electricity is coal free

theglobeandmail.com

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Re: For the first time in more than 150 years, Alberta's electricity is coal free

#111

Post by pfdietz »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #101
pfdietz wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This depends on the time scale. For days or weeks? Pumped hydro is better. But for seasonal storage? The size of the reservoir becomes prohibitive.

A water reservoir is a heck of a lot cheaper to make large compared to a hydrogen tank.

Hydrogen on this scale would be stored underground, preferably in solution mined salt caverns. This is a well established technology, although it's more used for storing natural gas. These caverns are very inexpensive to build, which is why they are used.

Alberta, as it turns out, is underlaid by kilometers of sedimentary rock that includes salt formations.

Re: For the first time in more than 150 years, Alberta's electricity is coal free

#112

Post by dheera »

chollida1 wrote: post #74

It is frustrating as someone who lives in Canada and has spend so much money to remove coal that India and China have said FU to the world and increased their coal usage. I guess given that those two countries are keeping Russia afloat by buying their oil it shouldn't be a surprise, but its still disappointing to see those countries choosing the path they did.

> India and China

Oof. Before we start pointing fingers, over 50% of China's energy consumption is manufacturing, and a significant chunk of that manufacturing is western countries outsourcing their manufacturing needs, i.e. claiming to be coal-free while really just burning the coal elsewhere and then blaming the landowner.

If you want to truly be coal-free, don't just pay for it to be built in Canada for your wooden house that consumes a few kilowatts. Pay for it to be built in China for all your manufacturing outposts that make your computer, TV, phone, kitchen gadgets, kitchen ware, disposable items, containers for food delivery, and everything else, that take an enormous amount of power to create. They are equally a part of your energy footprint.

Do you have iPhones in Alberta? It takes about 1 GJ or 278 kWh to make a single phone [1], which is about enough to heat an entire house for a month. For a computer you're looking at about 1 MWh, about a large house's heating usage in an entire year.

[1] https://conferences.sigcomm.org/hotnets/2011/papers/hotnetsX...

Re: For the first time in more than 150 years, Alberta's electricity is coal free

#113

Post by KennyBlanken »

skiexperte wrote: post #85
chollida1 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Being larger isn't a disadvantage. It most certainly is for distribution and generation near population density.

Or easier. With germany you can't just put solar panels around a big city because either the city is too big or the land is occopied by something else. But hey good that we talked about it :D

There's plenty of land in cities. Rooftops and solar canopies (parking lots with solar panels over them) for example. Solar canopies can even go above outdoor public transit lines.

They're all over the place in my area. I've seen them in church parking lots, supermarkets, you name it. Added benefit: you and your car are shaded from sun, snow, rain..

Re: For the first time in more than 150 years, Alberta's electricity is coal free

#114

Post by softfalcon »

xxpor wrote: post #71
softfalcon wrote: post #62

Hey folks, I live in Alberta. This isn't as big of a win as you all think it is. We replaced coal burning with natural gas and gasoline burning power generation. For those who will say, "but Alberta has wind and solar!" please know that our current premiere (similar to a governor) is actively attacking all of our renewable energy investments. Her name is Danielle Smith and she's quite literally a former oil and gas l…

Actual gasoline? Unless you're talking about super-isolated northern communities on generators [which should still be using diesel rather than gasoline], that seems... insane.

They fire up gasoline generators when the load is high as a back-up to natural gas generation.

There have been periods of rolling brown outs due to high industrial demand where I live. I know people in the industry and also watch the local news where they report that the gasoline backups have been activated and the brown outs should stop. Can confirm, they sometimes burn gasoline for power generation.

Re: For the first time in more than 150 years, Alberta's electricity is coal free

#115

Post by KennyBlanken »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #21
bryanlarsen wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their current source of income. Alberta has more sun and more wind than any place else in Canada so renewables could be quite profitable to them in the future, but what government cares about anything further out than the next election? Alberta also used to be the only place in Canada where you could just build a solar power plant and hook it up to the grid with minimal red tape so had a massive advantage in terms of…

I agree. The times they are a-changing, but we have a particularly regressive government at the moment that is actively blocking renewable production. The unfortunate bit about having the most sun is that during winter we still don't get much of it. It seems to me we need as much storage as we do production.

Winter is not an issue for solar because solar panel efficiency is better when the panel is cooler. A panel blazing away in Florida is actually losing quite a bit of efficiency because of how hot the panel is; much farther north even with less light, the panels can produce more.

Re: For the first time in more than 150 years, Alberta's electricity is coal free

#116

Post by ben_w »

chollida1 wrote: post #96
skiexperte wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or easier. With germany you can't just put solar panels around a big city because either the city is too big or the land is occopied by something else. But hey good that we talked about it :D

wow, i think you really missed the point:) Germany is a relativly small country even compared to Alberta. therefor the population is pretty centralized with makes it far easier to supply with energy. Alberta has 2 larger cities but the population is spread far a nd wide which makes distribution and supplying power that much harder.

Judging by this population density map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Canada_P...

And the ever-useful "The True Size Of…": https://www.thetruesize.com/#?borders=1~!MTU1OTcwMjU.MTI5MjQ...

I think you're overstating the difficulty given that population distribution.

And those two large splotches on the map representing Calgary and Edmonton and with most of the population pretty close by, they're only 282.6 km apart.

A 10cm^2 cross section of aluminium between them would have a resistance of 7.3 Ω, and even when bought from the first random supplier I found on Amazon that would only cost about €14m:

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=resistivity+aluminium+%...

https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Aluminium-Square-Solid-Material-S...

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+€5%2...

It would be about 12% of that price, €1.7m, if bought at bulk rates: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=282.6+kilometers+*+10cm...

At 1e6 V, 12.7 GW is 12.7 kA; I^2R losses over a 7.3 Ω link for that current is 1.18 GW: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=%2812700+amperes%29%5E2...

--

But even without any of that, there is one very important point you've overlooked:

Alberta has already got a power grid.

Re: For the first time in more than 150 years, Alberta's electricity is coal free

#117

Post by chollida1 »

ben_w wrote: post #116
chollida1 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wow, i think you really missed the point:) Germany is a relativly small country even compared to Alberta. therefor the population is pretty centralized with makes it far easier to supply with energy. Alberta has 2 larger cities but the population is spread far a nd wide which makes distribution and supplying power that much harder.

Judging by this population density map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/Canada_P... And the ever-useful "The True Size Of…": https://www.thetruesize.com/#?borders=1~!MTU1OTcwMjU.MTI5MjQ... I think you're overstating the difficulty given that population distribution. And those two large splotches on the map representing Calgary and Edmonton and with most of the population pretty close by, they're o…

Appreciate the response but I'll be honest I don't understand what point you are making.

My only point is that Alberta being larger than Germany means its more expensive to deliver power to all its various small towns distributed around the province.

That seems pretty tautologically correct to me given that power lines have a cost and must be constantly maintained and built to support new power demands.

I'm unsure about what the cross section of aluminum has to do with the size of a province, but i'm willing to learn:)

Run a simple thought experiment. Would it be easier to deliver power 100 meters or 100 km's? That's what we are debating here.

Re: For the first time in more than 150 years, Alberta's electricity is coal free

#118

Post by toomuchtodo »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #107
bryanlarsen wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that China's coal usage was basically flat in 2023 and expected to decline in 2024. China's coal capacity is increasing dramatically, but they're increasingly using their coal plants as peaker plants rather than for base production.

Medium term - China is going to lead the world in emissions reductions. They have the most to reduce and the most to lose if they don't move to renewables rapidly. Short term - nothing much is happening. Rome wasn't built in a day. The US can idly sit around and burn it's own natural gas and oil. The US at least has the option to maintain the status quo for a long time (it won't). But China doesn't even have this opt…

China will (supposedly) reach as well as potentially exceed their 2030 renewables target by the end of this year [1], and the solar manufacturing and deployment flywheel is still coming up to speed (global solar deployment is anticipated to reach ~660GW/pa by end of year, should achieve 1TW/pa within the next 18 months assuming current trajectories [2]). China and India being close geographically while also having enormous fossil generation to push out of the generation mix is convenient; not far from factory to solar farm.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/china-leads-renewabl...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40727619

Re: For the first time in more than 150 years, Alberta's electricity is coal free

#119

Post by adrianN »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #113
skiexperte wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or easier. With germany you can't just put solar panels around a big city because either the city is too big or the land is occopied by something else. But hey good that we talked about it :D

There's plenty of land in cities. Rooftops and solar canopies (parking lots with solar panels over them) for example. Solar canopies can even go above outdoor public transit lines. They're all over the place in my area. I've seen them in church parking lots, supermarkets, you name it. Added benefit: you and your car are shaded from sun, snow, rain..

It's a lot more expensive to put panels on roofs than to put them on a meadow somewhere.

Re: For the first time in more than 150 years, Alberta's electricity is coal free

#120

Post by chollida1 »

dheera wrote: post #112
chollida1 wrote: post #74

It is frustrating as someone who lives in Canada and has spend so much money to remove coal that India and China have said FU to the world and increased their coal usage. I guess given that those two countries are keeping Russia afloat by buying their oil it shouldn't be a surprise, but its still disappointing to see those countries choosing the path they did.

> India and China Oof. Before we start pointing fingers, over 50% of China's energy consumption is manufacturing, and a significant chunk of that manufacturing is western countries outsourcing their manufacturing needs, i.e. claiming to be coal-free while really just burning the coal elsewhere and then blaming the landowner. If you want to truly be coal-free, don't just pay for it to be built in Canada for your woode…

I mean, you basically ignored the point about them buying Russian oil/gas, thus enabling the Russian war. But yes, I agree that China makes things. India doesn't really have that excuse for using coal.
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