Giving students close access to a program that evaluates essays many times would be the worst possible thing to do. People are generally very good at adapting to systems, and the algorithm would break down pretty quickly as people find out which factors it favors and which ones it penalises (while human graders are arguably less strict in their criteria and can hence recognize these attempts at writing to the letter)…
This inevitably leads to an arms race, with the students and software getting better and better. At some point, sufficiently advanced gaming of essay scores is indistinguishable from students who naturally write well by following the rules which lead to good writing. As long as creativity and originality aren't sacrificed, is it really a problem?
The Algorithm Didn’t Like My Essay
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Re: The Algorithm Didn’t Like My Essay
#12If it's ok for them to use an algorithm to grade essays then it would be ok for students to use an algorithm to write the papers no? How is it different from using a calculator? it's a tool right? mathematics used to only be only pen and paper. (I know it says it would still be graded by people, I'm making a point) Writing is an artform and as such should be treated and graded as one. Sometimes you need to use langua…
(disclaimer - I work at Kaggle) I would recommend downloading the dataset[1] and taking a look at some of the essays. There is a tendency for an educated audience to (justifiably) worry about exactly what you've articulated, but when you read through the essays, you get an appreciation of how valuable a tool like this could be. These are elementary and middle school essays rife with rudimentary mistakes (which are at…
I wrote about this more extensively here: http://bellm.org/blog/2012/04/23/arguing-to-the-algorithm-ma...
Re: The Algorithm Didn’t Like My Essay
#13The biggest problem I see is, in the real world, concise is king... and marketing is the epitome of persuasiveness.
Microsoft marketing is God-awful fluff, but I guess that's where most consumers are -- stupid.
God says... 25:47 And if a sojourner or stranger wax rich by thee, and thy brother that dwelleth by him wax poor, and sell himself unto the stranger or sojourner by thee, or to the stock of the stranger's family: 25:48 After that he is sold he may be redeemed again; one of his brethren may redeem him: 25:49 Either his uncle, or his uncle's son, may redeem him, or any that is nigh of kin unto him of his family may redeem him; or if he be able, he may redeem himself.
25:50 And he shall reckon with him that bought him from the year that he was sold to him unto the year of jubile: and the price of his sale shall be according unto the number of years, according to the time of an hired servant shall it be with him.
25:51 If there be yet many years behind, according unto them he shall give again the price of his redemption out of the money that he was bought for.
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My India-nigger doctor probably thinks a college English professor knows more about persuasive writing than a Coke marketing manager.
God says... stoked Mozambique thank_you_very_much you're_no_fun impossible wastoid ghastly fer_sure Honduras let_me_count_the_ways I'm_off_today obviously special_case Israel what_a_mess resume freak fool Malaysia by_the_way Oh_really Poland Wow snap_out_of_it just_lovely fortitude California humility patience why_do_I_put_up_with_this ingrate begs_the_question pet caution anger what_would_Jesus_do figuratively other umm_the_other_answer later how_high Norway yada_yada_yada
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India-nigger programmers don't know how to use a hash table to collect unique words from a document. "But it's not secure without salt!"
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For what it's worth, math skill is pretty synanomous with IQ -- the real world idea of IQ. Sure, liberals can claim other things are IQ, but nobody really believes it. Wisdom, by the way, is different from IQ.
God says... his house, and from his labour, that performeth not this promise, even thus be he shaken out, and emptied. And all the congregation said, Amen, and praised the LORD. And the people did according to this promise.
5:14 Moreover from the time that I was appointed to be their governor in the land of Judah, from the twentieth year even unto the two and thirtieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that is, twelve years, I and my brethren have not eaten the bread of the governor.
5:15 But the former governors that had been before me were chargeable unto the people, and had taken of them bread and wine, beside forty shekels of silver; yea, even their servants bare rule over the people: but so did not I, because of the fear of God.
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Stupid shrink! I threw him a bone saying marketeers understood persuasive writing. Hint: that's psychology.
God says... weakest uses told accompany save death disdained hogs builded disentangle stated economy familiarly regardest likeness kindled instinctive bathing abide action basically wilfully efforts unthankful Estonia faileth fer_sure duties balneum START dance starting tempt devotion Sri_Lanka forethought forenoon heads sees heightening insensibly encumbered vow readest Image creation kindness awoke turned covered pair fool do_not_disturb no_more_tears X Glory Angels congratulation countenance direction Jupiter proper combine shrunk how_high sheep raging named frame recorded tm dear disregard com rocket_science balneum excelled frenzied gladly grave's firmament figurative resist taunt imparted glorious finds bounces Venus unlearned omened desirous constrain divine lick challenged panting visions infringement holiness this builded file agonised ran justify judgements amazed uncase perturbations Grace honied Exodus East_Timor endureth suffice limitation broke delivers You_da_man altogether astonishment incorruption sensation lengthened what_part_of_God_do_you_not_understand Jesus confidentially notices KIND thread Money perils excel shoe biggot out regulate wert written infantine unworthy waterest Episcopal rich boil observe Foul believed confidently dinner Speak murmured WHAT disputing plainer remission That's_my_favorite unforgotten been their DOMINE cogitated embalmed haphazard
Psychology is unlived wisdom, in my understanding. India-nigger is going-off on a particular x86 instruction. Go write an assembler and compiler and get back to me.
Re: The Algorithm Didn’t Like My Essay
#14Earlier quoted context omitted.
(disclaimer - I work at Kaggle) I would recommend downloading the dataset[1] and taking a look at some of the essays. There is a tendency for an educated audience to (justifiably) worry about exactly what you've articulated, but when you read through the essays, you get an appreciation of how valuable a tool like this could be. These are elementary and middle school essays rife with rudimentary mistakes (which are at…
I participated in the Kaggle competition, but I'm less optimistic about the pedagogic value of these systems. A black box algorithm won't explain to a student what their rudimentary mistakes are . I wrote about this more extensively here: http://bellm.org/blog/2012/04/23/arguing-to-the-algorithm-ma...
Two things: 1) Agree about the explanation bit. In fairness, that was not part of the competition. But I do believe that, given the way the features were constructed, many of the algorithms could be modified to also provide "explanation" of their scoring. The value is highly dependent on the features though (length, for instance, would probably be a prominent "explanation"), and I haven't actually tried it.
2) The "This would grade Dickinson/Hemingway/DFW/etc poorly" argument is true but, again, read the essays. These are serious edge cases - ones that should be addressed (by, for instance, correlating algorithmic scoring with human scoring), but this argument doesn't diminish the applicability of the algorithm to the vast majority of essays and students.
Re: The Algorithm Didn’t Like My Essay
#15Giving students close access to a program that evaluates essays many times would be the worst possible thing to do. People are generally very good at adapting to systems, and the algorithm would break down pretty quickly as people find out which factors it favors and which ones it penalises (while human graders are arguably less strict in their criteria and can hence recognize these attempts at writing to the letter)…
This inevitably leads to an arms race, with the students and software getting better and better. At some point, sufficiently advanced gaming of essay scores is indistinguishable from students who naturally write well by following the rules which lead to good writing. As long as creativity and originality aren't sacrificed, is it really a problem?
At least for this training set, my algorithm rewarded the length of the essay most of all (something like 65% of the total prediction). The only other significant factors were misspellings and prevalence of certain parts of speech.
That model matched the accuracy of human graders and several commercial essay grading packages.
Students reverse-engineering comparable algorithms won't necessarily have to write well to score well.
Re: The Algorithm Didn’t Like My Essay
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
This inevitably leads to an arms race, with the students and software getting better and better. At some point, sufficiently advanced gaming of essay scores is indistinguishable from students who naturally write well by following the rules which lead to good writing. As long as creativity and originality aren't sacrificed, is it really a problem?
You may be overestimating the sophistication of these algorithms. At least for this training set, my algorithm rewarded the length of the essay most of all (something like 65% of the total prediction). The only other significant factors were misspellings and prevalence of certain parts of speech. That model matched the accuracy of human graders and several commercial essay grading packages. Students reverse-engineeri…
Or, if it's slightly cleverer than that, certainly you could defeat it by producing a single, perfect-length, stylistically fantastic essay... which would be regurgitated word-for-word regardless of the subject matter.
I think, mind you, that software does have a place in analyzing student essays. If I could scan in an essay and have it spit out a word count, highlight any spelling errors or potentially problematic turns of phrase, and [most importantly] analyze for plagiarism, that would be valuable.
Re: The Algorithm Didn’t Like My Essay
#17If it's ok for them to use an algorithm to grade essays then it would be ok for students to use an algorithm to write the papers no? How is it different from using a calculator? it's a tool right? mathematics used to only be only pen and paper. (I know it says it would still be graded by people, I'm making a point) Writing is an artform and as such should be treated and graded as one. Sometimes you need to use langua…
(disclaimer - I work at Kaggle) I would recommend downloading the dataset[1] and taking a look at some of the essays. There is a tendency for an educated audience to (justifiably) worry about exactly what you've articulated, but when you read through the essays, you get an appreciation of how valuable a tool like this could be. These are elementary and middle school essays rife with rudimentary mistakes (which are at…
Re: The Algorithm Didn’t Like My Essay
#18The increasing reliance on automated tools and standardized tests is just one of many symptoms of the increasing detachment between teachers and students. We have to stop doubling down on the prussian style educational system, it stopped returning dividends decades ago. More so we have to stop acting as though we can just solve our educational problems by throwing more money at it. We need to empower good teachers and parents, we need to encourage and support students. Right now all of the incentives in the system run counter to those things.
Re: The Algorithm Didn’t Like My Essay
#19Earlier quoted context omitted.
This inevitably leads to an arms race, with the students and software getting better and better. At some point, sufficiently advanced gaming of essay scores is indistinguishable from students who naturally write well by following the rules which lead to good writing. As long as creativity and originality aren't sacrificed, is it really a problem?
You may be overestimating the sophistication of these algorithms. At least for this training set, my algorithm rewarded the length of the essay most of all (something like 65% of the total prediction). The only other significant factors were misspellings and prevalence of certain parts of speech. That model matched the accuracy of human graders and several commercial essay grading packages. Students reverse-engineeri…
in contrast, i suspect algorithmic approaches can be gamed more easily because they don't adapt in the same way. they're not solving the hard ai problem; they're grading essays (currently) written for a human reviewer.
for example, what happens if a child learns an existing text by heart and then substitutes appropriate nouns and verbs to suit the context? say they learn "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal" and then, for an essay on their favourite pet, they hand in "We hold these kittens to be furry, that all kittens are created hungry". That's good grammar; it's got suitable references to the subject; it's clearly nonsense.
Re: The Algorithm Didn’t Like My Essay
#20If it's ok for them to use an algorithm to grade essays then it would be ok for students to use an algorithm to write the papers no? How is it different from using a calculator? it's a tool right? mathematics used to only be only pen and paper. (I know it says it would still be graded by people, I'm making a point) Writing is an artform and as such should be treated and graded as one. Sometimes you need to use langua…
For the standardized test discussed in the article, it says the human graders gave three minutes, on average, to reading each essay. These tests are not wanting art. Writing one of these essays is no more art than writing a basic linked list implementation. It's not concerned with how good a writer a kid is, but that the kid can write at all. Edit: basically, the sheer scale of the grading required for a standardized…
I'd guess that the algorithm "map number of Microsoft Word reported spelling errors from (0 -> 800) to (20 -> 400)" does a pretty damn good job of guessing students' SAT Writing scores. Add in a factor for essay length, unique word cound, and grammar errors, and you'd probably get pretty damn close to perfect, within a reasonable statistical tolerance.
Children don't produce art, almost all of them produce garbage, right up to the top 1%. Make no mistake, all that standardized tests aim to measure is how stinky the shit that they produce is. I'm fine with missing a bit of brilliance at the top; those students will do just fine anyways. It's ranking the relative crappitude of the middle that's important here, and I think the standard (if crappy) grading procedures do a pretty good job here.