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Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

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Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#61

Post by defen »

dfc wrote: post #40
saulrh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swords are a lot lighter than people think, even the heaviest armor in use (completely different from the ceremonial stuff) was much less restrictive than usually believed, and the average video gamer is significantly less fit than the average medieval soldier. I suspect that if you used a wiimote or a kinect-tracked stick things would all balance out. It would still require some abstraction, true, but not quite that…

> the average video gamer is significantly less fit than the average medieval soldier. I am curious if this is just speculation or if you have evidence for this statement? At first it seems reasonable but I am not so confident after you factor in modern medicine and advances in nutrition/diet and discount for stereotyping.

Consider the draw weight of the longbow - "Although the draw weight of a typical English longbow is disputed, it was at least 360 newtons (81 pounds-force) and possibly more than 600 N (130 lbf), with some estimates as high as 900 N (200 lbf)". And they would loose approximately 6 arrows per minute in combat. And this was a weapon for the yeomanry, not the guys whose entire lives were devoted to maintaining military prowess.

Another quote: "Modern longbows have a useful range up to 180 m (200 yd). A 667 N (150 lbf) Mary Rose replica longbow was able to shoot a 53.6 g (1.9 oz) arrow 328 m (360 yd) and a 95.9 g (3.3 oz) a distance of 249.9 m (272 yd). A flight arrow of a professional archer of Edward III's time would reach 400 yds. It is also well known that no practice range was allowed to be less than 220 yds by order of Henry VIII"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_longbow

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#62

Post by TrevorJ »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #15
antipax wrote: post #6

Biggest problem with these games (I've found, anyway) is that your sword controller cannot magically stop in mid air when your virtual sword hits another sword or a wall or whatever. It really ruins the immersion.

It will also have to drastically downplay the importance of footwork. In a real swordfight, where to put your feet is nearly as important as where to put the sword.

This is really true. There are a lot of great stage combat clubs and groups around the country, after a certain point, it seems like it might just be more fun to go spar for real, or go learn some real choreography if you want the added 6 layers of safety (a must if you are using steel, IMO).

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#63

Post by ww520 »

It's going to be difficult to get right. They seem to emphasize on the hand work, the swing, parry, thrust. Sword fighting is as much foot work as hand work, as I've learned in my fencing days way back. There are only a few hand actions, the lounge, parry/return, and indirect attack, on different zones, but the foot work is the major part of the game. Keeping and judging the distance is a tough skill. Close in suddenly, retreat and lounge, counter lounge, lounge and crouch, .etc. All these will be difficult to replicate in the game.

I wish them luck.

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#64

Post by lionhearted »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #15
antipax wrote: post #6

Biggest problem with these games (I've found, anyway) is that your sword controller cannot magically stop in mid air when your virtual sword hits another sword or a wall or whatever. It really ruins the immersion.

It will also have to drastically downplay the importance of footwork. In a real swordfight, where to put your feet is nearly as important as where to put the sword.

> In a real swordfight, where to put your feet is nearly as important as where to put the sword.

Arguably more important. I fenced epee in university, and our coach was a little bit old school -- we went weeks just doing footwork before getting a weapon put in hand.

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#65

Post by [deleted] »

dfc wrote: post #40
saulrh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swords are a lot lighter than people think, even the heaviest armor in use (completely different from the ceremonial stuff) was much less restrictive than usually believed, and the average video gamer is significantly less fit than the average medieval soldier. I suspect that if you used a wiimote or a kinect-tracked stick things would all balance out. It would still require some abstraction, true, but not quite that…

> the average video gamer is significantly less fit than the average medieval soldier. I am curious if this is just speculation or if you have evidence for this statement? At first it seems reasonable but I am not so confident after you factor in modern medicine and advances in nutrition/diet and discount for stereotyping.

[deleted]

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#66

Post by ww520 »

tikhonj wrote: post #58
dmoy wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parrying only works with heavy, slow weapons. The unfortunate reality is that with a light, fast weapon, you do not have the time or reaction speed to actually parry. "Parrying" doesn't really happen. Getting the f * away with your feet is the only option. So yes I suppose it does matter what you mean by "real swordfighting." If you mean standing there decked out in 50lbs++ of metal armor with a giant sword & shield,…

I don't know. As I said earlier, I only really have experience with fencing (and mostly with saber), but real parrying does happen there. And sabers are extremely light and fast. (It feels a little silly to bring fencing up as the example when I just talked about how it isn't entirely applicable to the real world, but I think this part is.) It isn't just parrying in a vacuum--it also involves good timing, footwork an…

Usually parry is done with a return attack. It's more like knocking the opponent sword off balance and thrust mine in. There are much more control with light weapons like foil or sabers to do parry and return than heavy sword.

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#67

Post by arethuza »

dfc wrote: post #40
saulrh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swords are a lot lighter than people think, even the heaviest armor in use (completely different from the ceremonial stuff) was much less restrictive than usually believed, and the average video gamer is significantly less fit than the average medieval soldier. I suspect that if you used a wiimote or a kinect-tracked stick things would all balance out. It would still require some abstraction, true, but not quite that…

> the average video gamer is significantly less fit than the average medieval soldier. I am curious if this is just speculation or if you have evidence for this statement? At first it seems reasonable but I am not so confident after you factor in modern medicine and advances in nutrition/diet and discount for stereotyping.

I can recommend the book "The Time-traveller's Guide to Medieval England" - it mentions the amount of military training that both knights and commoners were expected to perform. Basically a knight was trained from a very early age to fight - no way would an average 21st century male be able to compete in skill or strength.

Even for commeners they were still often legally required to spend a significant amount of time working on their marshal skills - mainly archery.

http://www.amazon.com/Time-Travelers-Guide-Medieval-England/...

e.g. Here in Scotland there was a time that games like golf and football were officially banned as they were seen to distract men away from military training for the wars with England.

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#68

Post by ww520 »

planetguy wrote: post #24
dmoy wrote: post #11

Real swordfighting is not about the sword, it's about the footwork. Just physically do not be where the opponent's sword is heading. See: relatively little blade contact in extremely high level fencing.

Fencing raises another good point: realistic swordfighting is actually pretty boring compared to movie swordfighting. (If it weren't, then movie swordfighting wouldn't need to be so unrealistic). If I'm gonna play a swordfighting video game I wanna be Errol Flynn, not Benjamin Kleibrink. [Who? 2008 Olympic foil champion. Yes, I had to look that up, that's the point.]

Fencing has only a few moves so people don't know the game won't enjoy it as much as a spectator. But it's an extreme competitive sport. As with any competitive sport, it's lots of fun for the participants.

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#69

Post by jamesjyu »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #15
antipax wrote: post #6

Biggest problem with these games (I've found, anyway) is that your sword controller cannot magically stop in mid air when your virtual sword hits another sword or a wall or whatever. It really ruins the immersion.

It will also have to drastically downplay the importance of footwork. In a real swordfight, where to put your feet is nearly as important as where to put the sword.

This is also true for a plethora of sports games as well, specifically racquet based games. Swinging the racquet is less than half the battle -- footwork, in most physical types of activities, is much more important.

Omnidirectional treadmill? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnidirectional_treadmill

Re: Neal Stephenson wants to revolutionize sword fighting video games

#70

Post by arethuza »

Someone wrote: post #48
saulrh wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Swords are a lot lighter than people think, even the heaviest armor in use (completely different from the ceremonial stuff) was much less restrictive than usually believed, and the average video gamer is significantly less fit than the average medieval soldier. I suspect that if you used a wiimote or a kinect-tracked stick things would all balance out. It would still require some abstraction, true, but not quite that…

On the other hand, that long sword has more rotational inertia than the slightly heavier roman gladius, let alone a much smaller and lighter controller.

Having fenced a wee bit in high school I was shocked to get to waive a claymore around - a ~1.5m long two-handed broadsword has a lot of inertia.
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