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Tao Te Ching translated by Ursula Le Guin (1997)

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Re: Tao Te Ching translated by Ursula Le Guin (1997)

#101
post #17

I'll always remember from when I was a teenager, the visual symmetry of the first two sentences of the Tao Te Ching, echoing the "yin-yang symbol" 道可道, 非常道。 名可名, 非常名。 Here's a translation: The Dao that can be stated, is not the eternal Dao; The name that can be named is not the eternal name. So much is lost when translating from Chinese.

Yes, so much is lost. 道可道 This is three words: 道 -- dao, it means literally a road or path; metaphorically, it used to mean a spiritual way of life 可 -- ke, this generally is used today to indicate capability, actuality or acceptability: something is possible or something is actually true 道 -- same as the first one Now how do we translate this into ten or more English words?

So... Roadable road?

Re: Tao Te Ching translated by Ursula Le Guin (1997)

#103
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So much is lost when translating from Chinese. I don’t think this common, glib aphorism has to be true. It all depends on how your mind works, or what statement you have. Do you require ambiguity, and inferentialness to be explicitly clothed as such, as in Chinese, or can you take the words themselves, that can be concrete meanings, and use them as a jumping point to infer on your own? As in English. There's also a…

> I don’t think this common, glib aphorism has to be true. > or that Chinese has some greater expressive quality than other languages, which is arrogant bullshit and not true. Well, as stated a few moments ago in a previous comment: A picture is worth a thousand words. I'd be (genuinely) curious if you had more precise inputs as to why Chinese language (pictographic) wouldn't be more expressive than Western's (alphab…

Thank you for your reply. Let me think about it when I have time and get back to you! :) Are you Chinese, btw? I don't know if that's relevant, I'm just curious

Re: Tao Te Ching translated by Ursula Le Guin (1997)

#105

I've studied classical Chinese. Ursula Le Guin's translation does not retain much feeling or meaning from the original. I don't fault her on this though because most translations of the Daodejing are like this. I recommend Philip J. Ivanhoe's translation, which has its own flaws as well. If we want to go out into the weeds a bit, I think this text is ethereal in the original but despite this, most translations tend t…

> the Daodejing being the second most translated book in history after the Bibl I know this is difficult to quantify accurately, but Wikipedia lists Daodejing behind the Little Prince and Pinocchio https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_literary_works_by_nu...

Just to nit-pick, I think he meant number of different translations, not number of languages it was translated into. I doubt there are multiple translations of Little Prince into each of those languages.

What makes it important for this book is that the source is from classical Chinese which is far more ambiguous than say the French that Little Prince was written in.

Consider the first sentence: 道可道非常道 名可名非常名. It's written as two parallel structures, with 道 replaced by 名 in the second half. In both halves, 道/名 could be functioning as a verb or a noun in any of its usages.

Let's consider 道: amongst other things, 道 as a noun could mean road, path, way, principle, reason, skill, art, but also as a general class of objects like rivers, barriers, etc. 道 as a verb can mean to travel, to say, to express, etc. And of course, as a result of this text, 道 stands as a shortcut for the entire text - more than just a principle, but The Principle, more than just a way, but The Way.

Even the other words aren't simple. 可 is often just thought of as part of 可以 to mean may nowadays, but 可 itself means can, may, able to, to approve, to permit, to suit, certainly, etc. 非常 is an odd one, as I'm sure the modern day meaning (extremely) completely throws you off track. 非 on its own means not, wrong, to not be, to blame, etc. 常 means always, ever, constant, often, frequently, common, general, etc.

I'm not saying any of these examples I'm giving now are good translations, but you could, for example, have translations that are diverse and extreme as "the road which could be traveled is not often traveled", "to travel on something that could be a road is rarely the correct way", "travelling on something that might be a road but was not always a road", "the road you may travel on is often not a road" or "the road you may travel on is never the right way". None of these are like any existing translations I've seen, but that was done on purpose, because they're all legitimate (but unlikely) interpretations of the original.

If you look at the meanings given in this translation: "The way you can go isn’t the real way." In the same repo, Jane English's version is "The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao." My bilingual version translates it as "The Dao that can be trodden is not the enduring and unchanging Dao" (James Legge, 1815-1897).

You can see that the linked-to translation has chosen a quite different approach to at least two others. Which is correct? Perhaps all of them, perhaps none of them. There's a reason why these texts are considered so enlightening - there's no one correct answer, you have to really meditate on the meaning and come to your own conclusion.

But anyway, back to the point - the nature of the text means that if you're reading a translation it'll miss a lot of the inherent ambiguities of the text and instead direct your thinking down specific lines. That's why, for this text the number of different translations is more important than number of languages it's translated into.

Re: Tao Te Ching translated by Ursula Le Guin (1997)

#106
post #74

I've studied classical Chinese. Ursula Le Guin's translation does not retain much feeling or meaning from the original. I don't fault her on this though because most translations of the Daodejing are like this. I recommend Philip J. Ivanhoe's translation, which has its own flaws as well. If we want to go out into the weeds a bit, I think this text is ethereal in the original but despite this, most translations tend t…

> I don't fault her on this I do. She didn't know Chinese. For her to attempt a translation (by mashing up earlier translations) shows contempt for Chinese culture and literature. https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt1wn0qtj.12

>contempt /kən-tĕmpt′/ noun

>The feeling or attitude of regarding someone or something as inferior, base, or worthless; scorn.

>The state of being despised or dishonored. "was held in contempt by his former friends."

>Open disrespect or willful disobedience of the authority of a court of law or legislative body.

None of these definitions match with your usage of contempt and is an inappropriate use of the word. Your post "shows contempt" for English. Ironic.

Re: Tao Te Ching translated by Ursula Le Guin (1997)

#107
Read this translation as a kid when I read the texts of the major world religions. I never "got into it" but I found Kau chim[0] helps to relax when you are nervous about the future, even if you know it doesn't work.

My favorite bit from Taoism: https://thedailyzen.org/2015/05/27/the-empty-boat-by-chuang-...

[0]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kau_chim

Re: Tao Te Ching translated by Ursula Le Guin (1997)

#108
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Daodejing being the second most translated book in history after the Bibl I know this is difficult to quantify accurately, but Wikipedia lists Daodejing behind the Little Prince and Pinocchio https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_literary_works_by_nu...

Thanks for the very interesting list. I was expecting Euclid's Elements to be up there. Perhaps the filter "literary work" disqualified it. If you all pardon an off topic digression, the nebulosity of the definition of a straight line in elements has always bothered me. I wanted something free of reference to a physical artifact (straight edge, taught rope etc) and free of algebra. Its sometimes defined in terms of r…

> If you all pardon an off topic digression...

IMHO, Euclid's definition of a straight line in today's terms would be "a line that has the same direction on its entire length". His definition of a plane angle would be "a plane angle is the difference between the directions of two straight lines that have a common end in one point".

What are Playfair's and Hilbert's definitions?

Re: Tao Te Ching translated by Ursula Le Guin (1997)

#109
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds sensible from the point of view regular scientific enquiry. However, from a religious perspective, I'd think that the student has more chance of being wrong than the combined total of the majority of scholars in the tradition especially when the claim is that the original text was revealed rather than written. Otoh, even in cases where this is strictly held (eg. Islam), there at strong traditions which ex…

> However, from a religious perspective, I'd think that the student has more chance of being wrong than the combined total of the majority of scholars in the tradition Knowledge is a double edged sword: once you know about something, discovering new viewpoints about that thing becomes difficult. "子" (son, child, small thing, seed) is a respectful suffix in Chinese (e.g. 老子 (Laozi), 孔子 (Confucius), 天子[0]). > and a sys…

> Out of curiosity, do you mean that well-known disagreements among scholars have structured the legal system in essentially-Islamic regions?

I'm not sure about legal systems but the religion itself has several positions on many questions. The way this happens is that 2 or more qualified scholars disagree on a ruling based on their reading and analysis of primary texts. This results in two or more rulings. Sometimes, they're equally valid and this more or less created the 4 schools of practice in Sunni Islam. Sometimes, even within a school, there are differences of opinion. The distinctions are usually minor but for someone who is observant, it gives them options when following the stronger position is exceedingly difficult. The technical term for this is a Rukhsa (dispensation) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rukhsa

Re: Tao Te Ching translated by Ursula Le Guin (1997)

#110
post #5

I love Le Guin's writing in general, and her version of the Tao Te Ching, but it's very misleading to call it a "translation". There's even an endnote saying as much: > This is a rendition, not a translation. I do not know any Chinese. I could approach the text at all only because Paul Carus, in his 1898 translation of the Tao Te Ching, printed the Chinese text with each character followed by a transliteration and a…

The foreward (or was it an afterword?) in the edition I have on my shelf has quite a bit on how she produced it, and it is very interesting. It was a process of very intensively studying and comparing all existing English translations she could find, using the Carus Chinese character-by-character translation as a sort of rosetta stone. While of course using her own literary sensibilities to phrasing too, as an author…

> I could easily believe this would result in a product that is a more faithful conversion to English than many translations. It's interesting to think about how this in some ways can combine and synthesize various subjectivities over time in a way that you actually couldn't do if you read the original language and believed your "own" take on the original translation was the "correct" one!

The problem with that is that you can "creatively interpret" meaning into the text that wasn't there in the original. [ADDED: Not trying to imply she was deliberately mistranslating it, just that it's very easy to think about a word's varied meanings in your own language and not only miss the connected meanings in the other language, but also see false connections that were never there.] Leaving aside the problems with classical Chinese for a moment, the problem is that words in languages map to concepts in our heads, and these rarely correspond exactly to another word in another language. Take "computer", we might say "ordinateur" in French or "电脑" (literally "electric brain") in Mandarin but neither of these translations are able to capture the older meaning in English of a person who calculates something, which would be "calculateur" in French or "计算着" (lit. "person who calculates") in Mandarin.

Going to the text again, the main word is 道 which means way, path, principle, etc. and many more. These are usually translated as way for this text, but just that word alone has many other meanings in English that wouldn't be translated back into Chinese as 道 - for instance "way" in English could mean "method" or "possibility", but neither would make sense as a translation for 道. Another way of looking at it might be the colour chart for men vs women, which is meant as a joke but has a serious side showing that some groups of people split up and categorise things very differently.

What I dislike about her first line is the word "real". The translation is already kind of "out there" a bit (in line with some of the ones I listed in another post as possible interpretations due to the textual ambiguities, but which differed a lot from how most people interpreted the text). To me, "real" isn't implied by any of the words. I can see how she got there, because 道 is understood as "the one true way", but as a mental abstraction from a physical path that you should walk done to live life safely, to the "path" that you should walk spiritually to "not stray off the path". The problem is that none of the words in the text are concerned about truth vs lies, reality vs imaginary, rather this abstract concept of "the way". To translate "isn't the real way" she is using 非 for "not/isn't", seemingly completely ignoring 常 "always, constant, often, usual" and imbuing the already ambiguous 道 with another meaning that isn't really there.

[ADDED 2: Just re-reading this again, and it sounds a bit too critical. I think my point is not that her translation is "bad" or anything like that, and it can definitely be used to think about the text in ways that other translations might not lead you to. But I wouldn't use this as my primary source, and where her translation differs substantially from others it should be an indication that there's something particularly difficult to translate, and so you definitely need to consider other translations at that point and ask yourself why they are different.]

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