Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#41

Post by JumpCrisscross » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 9:14 AM UTC

MHard wrote: post #23

looping8 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple will not react until it is punished, I think. Too big to be scared but also too big to notice that it’s actually in danger.

I think it's more likely that while the punishment might be significant it will be more profitable to continue as long as possible violating the law or at least pushing the boundaries as much as possible instead of proactively being compliant. After a court order they will know exactly where the limits are and tiptoe them as much as possible. If they proactively try to be "overcompliant" they might loose more money i…

> while the punishment might be significant it will be more profitable to continue as long as possible violating the law or at least pushing the boundaries as much as possible instead of proactively being compliant

This is it. The law is ambiguous, and until someone specifies the line it makes no sense for either side to concede. Both Epic and Apple are multi-billion dollar companies taking maximalist positions.

There is also the shadow component of it being an open question—given the present state of European politics—as to which will outlast the other, Cupertino or Brussels.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#42

Post by ThePowerOfFuet » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 9:15 AM UTC

tgv wrote: post #29

supermatt wrote: post #5

That third party app stores are subject to review by apple is a problem in itself.

"It's absurd that apps are subject to review by Apple. I know what I'm doing. I've thoroughly inspected the source code of this app that I want to install." Not even the most brilliant hacker can say so. In other words: I don't agree. Users are dumb, and need to protected from harm. I don't want the Windows virus disaster all over again, especially because this time the stakes are considerably higher. You can disagre…

People who want to install only apps from the App Store are welcome to do so.

Your point is misdirection.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#43

Post by SiempreViernes » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 9:15 AM UTC

4rt wrote: post #32

tgv wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's absurd that apps are subject to review by Apple. I know what I'm doing. I've thoroughly inspected the source code of this app that I want to install." Not even the most brilliant hacker can say so. In other words: I don't agree. Users are dumb, and need to protected from harm. I don't want the Windows virus disaster all over again, especially because this time the stakes are considerably higher. You can disagre…

The security model on modern OSes is vastly different to the win95 days.

So are the threat actors.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#44

Post by caseyy » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 9:15 AM UTC

nottorp wrote: post #22

supermatt wrote: post #5

That third party app stores are subject to review by apple is a problem in itself.

That the only way to get applications on your phone is going through Apple, or a gatekeeper approved by apple, is a problem in itself too. That the first "app store" approved is built on predatory free to play gaming money is also a problem.

What is “predatory free to play” in the context of Fortnite?

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#45

Post by JumpCrisscross » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 9:18 AM UTC

supermatt wrote: post #5

That third party app stores are subject to review by apple is a problem in itself.

> third party app stores are subject to review by apple is a problem in itself

Anybody speaking with certainty on these questions should be distrusted.

We don’t know. We now have a natural experiment between the EU and U.S. My suspicion is we’ll see Orwellian corporate surveillance through mandated alternative marketplaces, e.g. Facebook requiring an Eye of Sauron marketplace to get around Apple’s rules, but that’s just a hunch. We may instead see a Cambrian explosion of creativity in the EU.

The question is how long we wait to measure. I think the answer is about one VC fund cycle, or 3 to 7 years. I don’t know when to start the clock—my hunch is when the first alt app store actually launches.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#46

Post by Rinzler89 » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 9:18 AM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #18

Barrin92 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

one step at a time. Bureaucracies and regulators move slow but it seems pretty evident that the wind is at least blowing into the correct direction this time. Might take another five years or so but in a lot of regions it seems like the control over devices and software is slowly breaking down. India, Japan, SK all have similar regulation passed or on the way.

> similar regulation passed or on the way. With exclusions that suit them. As you say, the wind is blowing the right way, it would be nice to see but console games get the same treatment.

>With exclusions that suit them.

Excuse them because they want their own rules and regulations on their territory and not the default US rules that ship with Google and Apple devices.

That would be like Budweiser selling their beer in Europe with the condition you have to be 21 to drink it because that's how it is where they're from.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#47

Post by Hamuko » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 9:18 AM UTC

nottorp wrote: post #22

supermatt wrote: post #5

That third party app stores are subject to review by apple is a problem in itself.

That the only way to get applications on your phone is going through Apple, or a gatekeeper approved by apple, is a problem in itself too. That the first "app store" approved is built on predatory free to play gaming money is also a problem.

"Gatekeeper approved by Apple" is not entirely accurate since Apple also gatekeeps what that gatekeeper can actually approve. All apps in third-party app stores must be notarized and Apple has complete control of what apps get notarized. UTM for example is not allowed on iOS even on third-party app stores since Apple has denied them notarization.

It's more of a choice between Apple, or Apple + third-party gatekeeper. Well, at least now – I fully expect this to be investigated by the EU.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#48

Post by 127 » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 9:22 AM UTC

rambambram wrote: post #33

The title alone makes me shiver. Apple "okays" what a government orders them to do. What!?? You and I look right through this power language, but this kind of wording makes people believe Apple is mightier than it is. It's disgusting from Reuters.

The alternative is to leave EU market. They do have a choice in the matter.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#49

Post by JumpCrisscross » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 9:22 AM UTC

rambambram wrote: post #26

cafed00d wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can’t a business be built solely without giving Apple a dime? The web is free — as in freedom and as in gratis. It has a developer tools system funded by hundreds of companies, developers and community members. There’s hardly any order of dipping, if any. Why doesn’t the web compete away Apple’s “dips”?

The web is more than good enough. There's just a lot of people drinking the kool-aid and believing big tech's subtle and not so subtle messages about the web being shite. Of course the web is shite on devices from companies that compete with the web. They actively undermine it.

> web is more than good enough

For content delivery, yes. For deeply-interactive apps, not in my experience: every vendor that went web-only that wasn’t just serving up text, in the end, forced me to a competitor.

Re: Apple okays Epic Games marketplace app in Europe

#50

Post by ben_w » Sat, Jul 06, 2024, 9:25 AM UTC

troupo wrote: post #37

tgv wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's absurd that apps are subject to review by Apple. I know what I'm doing. I've thoroughly inspected the source code of this app that I want to install." Not even the most brilliant hacker can say so. In other words: I don't agree. Users are dumb, and need to protected from harm. I don't want the Windows virus disaster all over again, especially because this time the stakes are considerably higher. You can disagre…

> Users are dumb, and need to protected from harm. And we know for a fact that Apple despite all their claims to the contrary cannot do that.

Indeed, but in the same way that code reviews and QA testers can't catch all defects. Perfect is the enemy of the good. Swiss cheese model: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_model

Apple's (flawed!) review process still catches a lot of bad actors. Not all, and it has false-positives. That doesn't mean it's useless.

The (legit) question is: is Apple also using security as an excuse to make more money at the expense of customer choice? Because Apple absolutely doesn't need to be the only entity performing this task — I don't trust Epic, I think their business model is predatory on gambling addiction, that doesn't mean they would be incapable of performing the same kinds of security review — and while Apple's smooshing of all the different expenses from API development to review and hosting and processing fees into a fixed sales percentage is convenient, it does make it harder for competitors to emerge for each of those separate tasks.