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Tao Te Ching translated by Ursula Le Guin (1997)

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Re: Tao Te Ching translated by Ursula Le Guin (1997)

#41
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this is similar to the popular Stephen Mitchell "translation" in that neither spoke the original language. That being said, I'm glad both of them exist. They are interesting and feel much different to me than the literal translations.

Ezra Pound did an awful lot of translation from Japanese, though he didn't know the language. He got rough word-for-word translations from friends, and used them as a starting point. When poets translate poetry, I believe that this is usually the case.

[deleted]

Re: Tao Te Ching translated by Ursula Le Guin (1997)

#42
post #23

I love Ursula Le Guin's writing so damn much. I am reading, "Lathe of Heaven" right now, such a great book to come off of Sula by Toni Morrison. Maybe if I pull the right strings, I can get reincarnated as one of Luisito's nose hairs, https://luisurrea.com/2018/01/tolfink-was-here-on-ursula-k-l... > Then she terrorized us by bringing Toni Morrison into the room to meet us. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daf1FH7fWFk

Coincidentally - or perhaps not! - Le Guin borrowed the title for The Lathe of Heaven from an awkward late-1800s translation of the Zhuangzi.

I am just reading about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhuang_Zhou now (author of Zhuangzi). At the beginning of every chapter (in Lathe of Heaven) is a quote or extract from Zhuang Zhou's writing.

I just found a short chat by Kim Stanley Robinson where he mentions Le Guin's translation of the Tao Te Ching, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Atf7wvPmhjo

Re: Tao Te Ching translated by Ursula Le Guin (1997)

#44
post #5

I love Le Guin's writing in general, and her version of the Tao Te Ching, but it's very misleading to call it a "translation". There's even an endnote saying as much: > This is a rendition, not a translation. I do not know any Chinese. I could approach the text at all only because Paul Carus, in his 1898 translation of the Tao Te Ching, printed the Chinese text with each character followed by a transliteration and a…

The foreward (or was it an afterword?) in the edition I have on my shelf has quite a bit on how she produced it, and it is very interesting. It was a process of very intensively studying and comparing all existing English translations she could find, using the Carus Chinese character-by-character translation as a sort of rosetta stone. While of course using her own literary sensibilities to phrasing too, as an author…

Great points, thought provoking! I think LLMs are about to usher in a new era for academic translation. Obviously they have their faults, but philosophy in particular suffers to a much greater degree from language barriers than the layman might guess, so I think there’s a lot of room for improvement. In particular, many German and French authors have works that haven’t been translated yet, and, more relevantly, Chinese philosophy is still only tangentially related to European philosophy. When books do get translated, they often are translated with a significant delay, obviously leading to issues for people trying to form a scientific consensus.

I think the work of both great thinkers like Husserl and more underappreciated ones like Edith Stein would benefit greatly from LLM-assisted term-standardization and overall synchronized translation, with their original German-language works fed in alongside the translations we do have, for automated comparison purposes.

The academy is efficient, but IMO we’re about to see a scientific revolution in the humanities — aka cognitive science.

Re: Tao Te Ching translated by Ursula Le Guin (1997)

#47
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes this is similar to the popular Stephen Mitchell "translation" in that neither spoke the original language. That being said, I'm glad both of them exist. They are interesting and feel much different to me than the literal translations.

Ezra Pound did an awful lot of translation from Japanese, though he didn't know the language. He got rough word-for-word translations from friends, and used them as a starting point. When poets translate poetry, I believe that this is usually the case.

"In prose, the translator is a servant to the original.author; in poetry, a rival" (don't remember the attribution).

Re: Tao Te Ching translated by Ursula Le Guin (1997)

#48
post #17

I'll always remember from when I was a teenager, the visual symmetry of the first two sentences of the Tao Te Ching, echoing the "yin-yang symbol" 道可道, 非常道。 名可名, 非常名。 Here's a translation: The Dao that can be stated, is not the eternal Dao; The name that can be named is not the eternal name. So much is lost when translating from Chinese.

Yes, so much is lost. 道可道 This is three words: 道 -- dao, it means literally a road or path; metaphorically, it used to mean a spiritual way of life 可 -- ke, this generally is used today to indicate capability, actuality or acceptability: something is possible or something is actually true 道 -- same as the first one Now how do we translate this into ten or more English words?

Thank you for sharing this

I was gifted with one translation of the Tao Te Ching. While a translation in hindsight I found it to be one that resonated the most.

I am pretty sure this is an online version of it but will have to check.

“ The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth. The named is the mother of ten thousand things. Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Ever desiring, one can see the manifestations. These two spring from the same source but differ in name; this appears as darkness. Darkness within darkness. The gate to all mystery.”

https://www.wussu.com/laotzu/laotzu01.html

Re: Tao Te Ching translated by Ursula Le Guin (1997)

#49

The best translation of Tao Te Ching is from OSHO. Hands down a hidden gem -- https://oshoworld.com/tao-upanishad-by-osho-01-127/

Can I confirm this is only in Hindu? Just wanted to make sure I'm not missing an English link on the page.

Hindi is the language.

Hindu are a people.

Re: Tao Te Ching translated by Ursula Le Guin (1997)

#50
post #17

I'll always remember from when I was a teenager, the visual symmetry of the first two sentences of the Tao Te Ching, echoing the "yin-yang symbol" 道可道, 非常道。 名可名, 非常名。 Here's a translation: The Dao that can be stated, is not the eternal Dao; The name that can be named is not the eternal name. So much is lost when translating from Chinese.

Yes, so much is lost. 道可道 This is three words: 道 -- dao, it means literally a road or path; metaphorically, it used to mean a spiritual way of life 可 -- ke, this generally is used today to indicate capability, actuality or acceptability: something is possible or something is actually true 道 -- same as the first one Now how do we translate this into ten or more English words?

I suppose that wenyan is not a normal spoken language [1], but a form of a literary encoding, more like poetry meeting stenography, and a way to crystallize the meaning without excessive syntax.

English translation requires many more words because a "normal", vernacular Chinese rendition would also require many more words.

My suggestion is to assume quotes:

"Dao which is 'dao' is not true dao", that is, the mere word "dao" (and, by extension, any more descriptive and explanatory words) is insufficient to convey the meaning of true dao.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Chinese#Grammar_an...

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