Live data from Hacker News

Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

skeptic.org.uk

141–150 of 172 posts

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're even covered by some insurance plans. A friend of mine is an orthopedic surgeon, and they explained to me that for mild problems, which would normally heal on their own, it's cheaper to cover a placebo rather than real medication.

This is basically how TCM came to be! The Chinese Communist Party had billions being raised out of incredible poverty and that populace started demanding medical care. There was no possible way to supply enough clinics, doctors, nurses, etc - and not just because Mao whipped the Red Guard into an anti-intellectual froth than then slaughtered much of China's academic/scientific community. So Mao waved his hands and in…

Sometimes I get into conversations with TCM advocates.

"If you get into a car accident in China," I say, "an ambulance will take you to a hospital where they will treat you with western medicine. Why do you think that is?"

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#142
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pseudoephedrine - you can't buy that because the DEA has a problem with it lol Ok. (Though there is still the question of whether it actualy makes sense for the DEA to care.) How about commonly used antibiotics? > you can buy the other stuff as reagents/third party suppliers etc, for 'research' use. Antibiotics? Please enlighten me.

for cell culture lol it's not hard to find them, even though arguably it should be because of resistance. Also this isn't advice to take them - they aren't regulated and so you shouldn't trust them lol they're for research use only for a reason

> this isn't advice to take them - they aren't regulated and so you shouldn't trust them lol they're for research use only for a reason

In other words, no, I can't buy anything I want unless the DEA has a problem with it. I can buy stuff that doesn't work or that I can't trust, but I can't buy antibiotics (or many other things I might want) that I can trust. Which of course concedes my point.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#143
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for cell culture lol it's not hard to find them, even though arguably it should be because of resistance. Also this isn't advice to take them - they aren't regulated and so you shouldn't trust them lol they're for research use only for a reason

> this isn't advice to take them - they aren't regulated and so you shouldn't trust them lol they're for research use only for a reason In other words, no, I can't buy anything I want unless the DEA has a problem with it. I can buy stuff that doesn't work or that I can't trust, but I can't buy antibiotics (or many other things I might want) that I can trust. Which of course concedes my point.

You don't have a right to buy stuff that works or that you can trust, the point is that for noncontrolled nonpatented substances, nobody can stop you from buying or synthesizing active ingredients for your own use in the US, even if logically you shouldn't be trusted to have the competence to not hurt yourself, or if frankly there should be way way more regulation.

You keep bringing up antibiotics but it's the category of drugs with the most widespread use (animal agriculture) with one of the strongest cases for being drastically under-regulated - they stop working if things become resistent to them and we spray them everywhere like candy. Also you keep acting as if getting a prescription is some sort of actual barrier or burden for non-prescription drugs, which is particularly funny after the whole fiasco with wegovy off label prescriptions before the active ingredient was approved for obesity/launched for obesity. These are not real barriers, even when they probably should be.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just prescribe a crystal and some essential oils instead? Maybe have them sacrifice a chicken tomorrow evening at dusk? Actually, if they send me $400 in Bitcoin I will simply cure them with the power of prayer. Nobody is making meth off of my well wishes either.

Why a prescription? If the patient can get a placebo fix without a prescription, isn't that better? Of course having a "healer" present with a "prescription" may make people feel better. So maybe prescribing crystals is better than pharmacy homeopathic remedies. However, none of this needs to cost $400. Given that these are all placebos, they should cheap and safe.

Nah, if they need to believe in homeopathic cure-alls it most definitely needs to cost $400. Compared to a Medbed, I'm offering a total bargain.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#145
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this isn't advice to take them - they aren't regulated and so you shouldn't trust them lol they're for research use only for a reason In other words, no, I can't buy anything I want unless the DEA has a problem with it. I can buy stuff that doesn't work or that I can't trust, but I can't buy antibiotics (or many other things I might want) that I can trust. Which of course concedes my point.

You don't have a right to buy stuff that works or that you can trust, the point is that for noncontrolled nonpatented substances, nobody can stop you from buying or synthesizing active ingredients for your own use in the US, even if logically you shouldn't be trusted to have the competence to not hurt yourself, or if frankly there should be way way more regulation. You keep bringing up antibiotics but it's the catego…

> You don't have a right to buy stuff that works or that you can trust

We're not talking about rights here. You claimed, and I quote, "You can buy whatever you want unless the DEA has an issue with it." I am simply pointing out that that is not true. Whether it should be true as a matter of right is irrelevant to that factual question.

> you keep acting as if getting a prescription is some sort of actual barrier or burden for non-prescription drugs

Um, no, I said no such thing. Obviously having to get a prescription is not a barrier or burden for non prescription drugs. But, as you yourself have pointed out, a huge number of those non-prescription drugs, for which there is no barrier or burden, don't work. And, as you have also pointed out, routing around things like prescriptions to get, for example, antibiotics means you can't trust the product. So there are barriers and burdens in the way of getting things that do work and can be trusted. Which was my point, and which contradicts your original claim that I responded to.

The question of whether there should be all these barriers and burdens in the way of buying things that work and can be trusted is a separate question. Your argument for why there should appears to be that without such barriers more harm would be done. Of course there will always be people who make stupid choices, and giving people more freedom by removing barriers and burdens will increase that. But you are not recognizing the other side of the barriers and burdens, which is that they prevent people from making good choices, choices that could save their lives. For example, look up the harm done in preventable deaths by the FDA's slowness in permitting beta blockers.

The post you responded to that advocated a libertarian approach was saying, in effect, that, on net, the harm done by regulation is greater than the harm done by individual people making bad choices in the absence of regulation. I happen to agree. You apparently do not. But I do not see that you have given any reason to believe that the opposite is true. I certainly don't see anything in what you've posted that makes the opposite claim the slam dunk that you appear to think it is.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's bad enough there are people selling ... bibles I'd like to suggest that starting a thread based on "${specific_religion} is false" won't go well on HN. Or was your point more about the selling of them? Sorry if I misunderstood.

To the point of OP, this is the same kind of belief, just older. One believes in /something/ when there is no scientific evidence for it - against all odds.

I'd like to substantively respond, but the GP comment's negative score confirms that HN isn't a good forum for this topic.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#147

I regularly had arguments on homeopathy with some close family members. I stopped, because belief in homeopathy is the same kind of belief as belief in flat-earth, and you can't be cured off it. People get seduced by a somewhat internal logic. They get a fuzzy feeling of superiority in their discovery that the mainstream ignores. If you point out the absolute lack of evidence of any of what they believe in, it's beca…

> They get a fuzzy feeling of superiority in their discovery that the mainstream ignores.

I mean, this is the allure of all quackery, conspiracy theories, cults, and other forms of "alternative" facts: The mainstream doesn't want you to know this secret that I'm sharing with you! Doctors hate this one simple trick! Your financial planner is lying to you, but if you buy my seminar, you'll learn the truth! The government is silencing us through mainstream social media, but if you come to Social Network Blah, you will be able to hear the truth! Employment is a scam, but if you join Amway you can learn the real truth about business and your own boss! My religion offers the truth that the rest hide from you!

Somehow, human beings have become vulnerable to "Truth FOMO" and when these guys really get their hooks into you and you start to base your very identity on their truth, well, you can't back out of it without invalidating your entire identity.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#148
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boy, I bet all those people in Flint, Michigan are glad they're immune to lead now.

Is it supposed to be my fault, or the governor's fault that they chose to live in Flint and not Palo Alto or the Upper East Side of Manhattan? If you make bad choices, take responsibility and bear the consequences. That's the American Way. It ain't my problem, Jack!

What will you say to people in Palo Alto who experience earthquakes, or Manhattanites who experience flooding?

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#149

I still don't understand why these can be sold in American pharmacies.

What should not be allowed to sold in pharmacy? Or should that even be asked. I think this is pretty relevant question. Should pharmacies have some extra regulation that limits them from selling anything but exactly approved products? Or specific models of such? Like only certain toothbrushes?

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#150

I regularly had arguments on homeopathy with some close family members. I stopped, because belief in homeopathy is the same kind of belief as belief in flat-earth, and you can't be cured off it. People get seduced by a somewhat internal logic. They get a fuzzy feeling of superiority in their discovery that the mainstream ignores. If you point out the absolute lack of evidence of any of what they believe in, it's beca…

I've heard of a strategy that can help some people challenge their belief for issues like homeopathy or flat earth. The idea is to ask them to rate on a scale of 1-10 the strength of their belief. As in, "how convinced are you on a scale of 1-10 that the earth is flat?". If they give anything less than 10, you then follow up by asking them why that score and why not a higher or lower score as in (if they said e.g., 8…

Here's a better strategy: don't waste time on engaging them on that topic.

The best possible outcome is that you waste a ton of your time (and theirs), and convince them that the Earth isn't flat.

Did anyone benefit? If we chose to try and convince people about everything they are wrong about, we'd be endlessly debating about every minor thing that's already been established and replicated.

Post reply on HN