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Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

skeptic.org.uk

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Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#121

Post by BalinKing »

vog wrote: post #68
jxy wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THE PLACEBO EFFECT: It works even when you know it's a placebo.

This is an incorrect summary of the placebo effect. The placebo effect does require the patient to either believe it is effective, or at least not knowing clearly it is ineffective. This is why clinical studies don't tell neither group (neither the treated group nor the control group) who is in which group, to not spoil the results. And also, this is why homeopathy puts so much effort into spreading the belief they a…

GP is actually correct according to Wikipedia[0] (for what that's worth): There seems to be evidence that "open-label placebos"—i.e. "where the patient is fully aware that the treatment is inert"—still have positive effects.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo#Effects

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#122

Post by pdonis »

vikramkr wrote: post #99
derbOac wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be downvoted for this, but I tend to have a kind of libertarian take on this. I absolutely do not believe in homeopathy beyond placebo effects, and I understand the harm they do by opportunity costs in pursuing other treatments. But at the end of the day I feel like all medications should basically be handled like homeopathy products. They should be available to anyone, barring some kind of competency ruling…

its not about banning availability, its about making them required to prove the health claims theyre making. If you didn't have any requirements to prove your drug worked before selling it, youd take away a pretty huge market incentive to make drugs that work (health is about as far from a perfect full information free market as you can get -- homeopathy doesn't work at all and those companies are making plenty of mo…

> You can buy whatever you want unless the DEA has an issue with it.

Over the counter? No, you can't. You can buy a lot of stuff that doesn't work over the counter. But, for example, if I want a decongestant that actually works (pseudoephedrine HCl), I have to go to the pharmacy and show them my driver's license and make a record of the purchase because the government is afraid I might start a meth lab.

And that doesn't even get into all the market failures with prescription drugs. What if I have the same bacterial infection for the umpteenth time and I know that antibiotic X will fix it? Can I just walk into the drugstore and get a course of antibiotic X? Of course not. (At least, not in the US. But in Mexico, I can.)

Even if the argument is that I might be misdiagosing my symptoms (which, if it's the umpteenth time I've had the same thing, is not a very good argument), why isn't there a machine in the drugstore that can check my diagnosis? It's already been shown that expert systems can outperform human doctors for many diagnostic tasks. In a functioning market for health care, we would see that technology in wide use. But we don't, because we don't have a functioning market for health care.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#123

Post by slibhb »

whamlastxmas wrote: post #103
slibhb wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People want to buy them and we live in a free country.

Unless we want to make people accountable for running their own sophisticated clinical studies for every single product we buy, we should probably have some rules in place around false claims and false advertising.

We have those rules about how homeopathic "medicine" can be labeled.

At the end of the day, people are allowed to buy dumb shit. 50% of my local CVS is make-up, which is way more egregious than echinacea root extract.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#124

Post by o11c »

nw05678 wrote: post #61

If it worked and had the scientific evidence behind it then would be called medicine.

It depends on the target market.

There are some medicines that do actually work, but they're advertised toward the people who believe in homeopathy, so they are labeled as homeopathic.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#125

Post by vikramkr »

pdonis wrote: post #122
vikramkr wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its not about banning availability, its about making them required to prove the health claims theyre making. If you didn't have any requirements to prove your drug worked before selling it, youd take away a pretty huge market incentive to make drugs that work (health is about as far from a perfect full information free market as you can get -- homeopathy doesn't work at all and those companies are making plenty of mo…

> You can buy whatever you want unless the DEA has an issue with it. Over the counter? No, you can't. You can buy a lot of stuff that doesn't work over the counter. But, for example, if I want a decongestant that actually works (pseudoephedrine HCl), I have to go to the pharmacy and show them my driver's license and make a record of the purchase because the government is afraid I might start a meth lab. And that does…

pseudoephedrine - you can't buy that because the DEA has a problem with it lol.

and you can buy the other stuff as reagents/third party suppliers etc, for 'research' use.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#126

Post by worik »

evilduck wrote: post #94
blendergeek wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the homeopathic remedies don't harm anyone (I know that some have, this comment only references the remedies that don't), what is the problem with them being sold and used? Many cold medicines have side effects, some are even abused recreationaly. Given that human bodies tend to recover with or without cold medicine (and given the shaky legs that Phenylephrine stands on), what is the issue with people using "fake…

Why not just prescribe a crystal and some essential oils instead? Maybe have them sacrifice a chicken tomorrow evening at dusk? Actually, if they send me $400 in Bitcoin I will simply cure them with the power of prayer. Nobody is making meth off of my well wishes either.

> Actually, if they send me $400 in Bitcoin I will simply cure them with the power of prayer.

Sounds like a business plan

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#127

Post by worik »

blincoln wrote: post #98
blendergeek wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The choice is over the counter cold medicine vs homeopathic "remedies". Neither of these cure diseases. Neither of these prevent the seeking of medical care. Both of them may make people feel better (the placebo effect can be powerful). Only one of these is frequently abused by teenagers as a recreational drug.

There are plenty of people who take homeopathic and other alternative products instead of prescription products because they can't afford the prescription products, and fraudulent advertising makes them think the alternative is more or less equivalent. I actually had someone at a pet store try to sell me homeopathic medication instead of dewormer because they were out of actual dewormer. Do you think that's harmless…

> There are plenty of people who take homeopathic and other alternative products instead of prescription products because they can't afford the prescription products,

True

But worse people use homeopathic remedies because they do not trust modern medicine

Harmless for cold cures, not harmless for infectious diseases

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#128

Post by worik »

o11c wrote: post #124
nw05678 wrote: post #61

If it worked and had the scientific evidence behind it then would be called medicine.

It depends on the target market. There are some medicines that do actually work, but they're advertised toward the people who believe in homeopathy, so they are labeled as homeopathic.

> There are some medicines that do actually work, but they're advertised toward the people who believe in homeopathy, so they are labeled as homeopathic.

Really?

That is a claim that could be backed with an example

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#129

Post by pdonis »

vikramkr wrote: post #125
pdonis wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can buy whatever you want unless the DEA has an issue with it. Over the counter? No, you can't. You can buy a lot of stuff that doesn't work over the counter. But, for example, if I want a decongestant that actually works (pseudoephedrine HCl), I have to go to the pharmacy and show them my driver's license and make a record of the purchase because the government is afraid I might start a meth lab. And that does…

pseudoephedrine - you can't buy that because the DEA has a problem with it lol. and you can buy the other stuff as reagents/third party suppliers etc, for 'research' use.

> pseudoephedrine - you can't buy that because the DEA has a problem with it lol

Ok. (Though there is still the question of whether it actualy makes sense for the DEA to care.) How about commonly used antibiotics?

> you can buy the other stuff as reagents/third party suppliers etc, for 'research' use.

Antibiotics? Please enlighten me.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#130

Post by rqtwteye »

whamlastxmas wrote: post #103
slibhb wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People want to buy them and we live in a free country.

Unless we want to make people accountable for running their own sophisticated clinical studies for every single product we buy, we should probably have some rules in place around false claims and false advertising.

Maybe we should also have some rules around false claims and false advertising around food in general. I think this causes more damage than homeopathic stuff ever can do.
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