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Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

skeptic.org.uk

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Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#111

Post by atombender »

munchler wrote: post #3

Homeopathy is total BS, but the placebo effect is real. Is there a way that medical science can allow people to benefit from the latter without rewarding quacks who push the former?

The placebo effect and the biological basis for it is absolutely being seriously studied.

You might be interested in the work of Ted Kaptchuk and Kathryn Hall [1], for example. (Kaptchuk is a trained acupuncturist with a degree in Chinese medicine, but basically re-educated himself in western medicine, and is a highly regarded scientist.)

One of their insights is that placebo effect comes from neural modulation of pain receptors, and that the placebo effect has specific limitations. For example, the placebo effect cannot cure cancer or make a cold go away, but it can lessen pain and reduce inflammation through hormone signaling.

[1] https://www.harvardmagazine.com/node/39354

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#112

Post by gumby »

bryant wrote: post #18
gumby wrote: post #10

If homeopathy "theory" says that the water retains an "imprint" of other chemicals it encountered, clearly the tap water coming into your house is horribly contaminated with the fish pee, ozone (from UV purification treatment) and the pipes themselves. I briefly considered selling a device that would "reverse" those consequences so the water from your tap would be homeopathically neutralized. But it just seemed uneth…

You could probably still do it. It'd just have to be a distillation system that's not explicitly branded as a countertop water distiller but still describes its function and effects as such. You see plenty of examples of this on the market already as-is in different sectors. A part for a Ford GT could cost 500 bucks where the same part for a Ford Fiesta could cost 50.

Just relabel some cheap white-label distillation units by putting them in a pretty metal housing, with "100% natural rubber" hoses (sell a subscription to hose replacements too!) then mark up 600%.

My problem is I am uncomfortable bilking the uneducated. There's enough of that going on already.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#113

Post by strongpigeon »

charles_f wrote: post #34

I regularly had arguments on homeopathy with some close family members. I stopped, because belief in homeopathy is the same kind of belief as belief in flat-earth, and you can't be cured off it. People get seduced by a somewhat internal logic. They get a fuzzy feeling of superiority in their discovery that the mainstream ignores. If you point out the absolute lack of evidence of any of what they believe in, it's beca…

I've heard of a strategy that can help some people challenge their belief for issues like homeopathy or flat earth. The idea is to ask them to rate on a scale of 1-10 the strength of their belief. As in, "how convinced are you on a scale of 1-10 that the earth is flat?". If they give anything less than 10, you then follow up by asking them why that score and why not a higher or lower score as in (if they said e.g., 8/10): "What would make it a 9/10 or a 10/10?".

Basically having them "ironman" the opposite side of the argument can cause people to start to think more objectively about the issue. However, if the person says 10/10 there apparently isn't much that can be done.

I've never tried this myself as I don't have any flat earther or homeopathy believers in my entourage, but it does seem to make sense and I've used this to question some of my beliefs myself. Not saying it would work with your family members either though.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#114

Post by EForEndeavour »

vikramkr wrote: post #89
EForEndeavour wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very much false. 1. Under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, homeopathic products are subject to the same requirements related to approval, adulteration and misbranding as other drug products. https://www.fda.gov/drugs/information-drug-class/homeopathic... 2. Homeopathic products are "classified as either over-the-counter (OTC) or prescription medicines." https://www.chpa.org/about-consumer-healthcare/faqs/faq…

from that same link: > There are no FDA-approved products labeled as homeopathic; this means that any product labeled as homeopathic is being marketed in the U.S. without FDA evaluation for safety or effectiveness.

That's beside the point of the comment I replied to, which falsely said homeopathic products were classified as dietary supplements.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#115

Post by gumby »

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #22
charles_f wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> clearly the tap water coming into your house is horribly contaminated with the fish pee, ozone (from UV purification treatment) and the pipes themselves. But then, the next concept is "like cures like". Why do you think people are so immune to fish piss?

Boy, I bet all those people in Flint, Michigan are glad they're immune to lead now.

Is it supposed to be my fault, or the governor's fault that they chose to live in Flint and not Palo Alto or the Upper East Side of Manhattan?

If you make bad choices, take responsibility and bear the consequences. That's the American Way. It ain't my problem, Jack!

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#116

Post by gumby »

Teever wrote: post #36
gumby wrote: post #10

If homeopathy "theory" says that the water retains an "imprint" of other chemicals it encountered, clearly the tap water coming into your house is horribly contaminated with the fish pee, ozone (from UV purification treatment) and the pipes themselves. I briefly considered selling a device that would "reverse" those consequences so the water from your tap would be homeopathically neutralized. But it just seemed uneth…

> But it just seemed unethical to take advantage of the poorly educated I thought about doing the same during COVID when people were believing ludicrous claims about nanobots in the vaccine. I was thinking that you could make a nice chunk of coin selling those old acam magnetic bracelets that 'deactivate the nanobots so that you can get the vaccine protection without the bots' That way people would be helped by your…

> And another way to look at it is that these people are going to be scammed by someone, it might as well be you, some with morals

Hard to believe that anyone scamming others has acceptable moral scruples. Rather a case of "Yes, he killed a bunch of people but at least he was kind to his dog and kept to a strict vegetarian diet for moral reasons".

But I have to confess I had some pleasurable Schadenfreude thinking of this idea.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#117

Post by tpoacher »

vog wrote: post #68
jxy wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THE PLACEBO EFFECT: It works even when you know it's a placebo.

This is an incorrect summary of the placebo effect. The placebo effect does require the patient to either believe it is effective, or at least not knowing clearly it is ineffective. This is why clinical studies don't tell neither group (neither the treated group nor the control group) who is in which group, to not spoil the results. And also, this is why homeopathy puts so much effort into spreading the belief they a…

studies don't tell you about being on a placebo because of blinding, not because it would stop the placebo from working.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#118

Post by dmoy »

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #109
vog wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, fair point. But then, why prescribe the most expensive placebos where you co-finance societal harmful behavior, rather than just prescribing the "harmless" placebos that are not homeopathy, which are usually even cheaper and don't have any ideological overhead?

I'm not aware of any research along these lines, but I suspect that all placebos are not equally effective. It's a psychological effect, so things like price or flavor or packaging likely affect its strength.

Yea there is research into it, and you're correct

Color matters: placebo colored pills work better than white pills.

Delivery mechanism matters: placebo injections work better than pills.

Idk about price, packaging, or flavor specifically. But delivery mechanism, color, number of pills, etc I remember from a study.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#119

Post by gumby »

samus wrote: post #52
gumby wrote: post #10

If homeopathy "theory" says that the water retains an "imprint" of other chemicals it encountered, clearly the tap water coming into your house is horribly contaminated with the fish pee, ozone (from UV purification treatment) and the pipes themselves. I briefly considered selling a device that would "reverse" those consequences so the water from your tap would be homeopathically neutralized. But it just seemed uneth…

Such devices are indeed already on the market. They are fancy water filters, nothing more, nothing less.

I should have guessed.

Of course the water picks up the imprint of the filters. My device would use magnets! Moving magnets so it doesn't bias the water.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#120

Post by sgerenser »

gwd wrote: post #48
sgerenser wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S., sometimes a medicine is marked as “homeopathic” just to avoid regulation, and actually does contain a real active ingredient. This is the case with zinc lozenges (for colds), which contain an actual therapeutic dose of zinc but are presumably marketed as “homeopathic” since the FDA doesn’t regulate herbal or homeopathic “treatments.” Not sure if anything like that happens in Germany as well though.

Is that "homeopathic" or "herbal / dietary supplement"?

It’s not actually homeopathic, but for some reason it uses the word “homeopathic” on the packaging (I’ve seen it on multiple brands). Example: https://coldeeze.com/collections/lozenges
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