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Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

skeptic.org.uk

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Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#81

Post by KennyBlanken »

calvinmorrison wrote: post #49
explaininjs wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because every bottle is clearly labeled “The FDA has not evaluated this for treating any condition”. There are a great many products that the FDA hasn’t evaluated that are still sold, why should these be any different?

But why are businesses like CVS hawking snake oil while also having trained pharmacists on staff.

Most pharmacies used to sell tobacco products (they only started to do so after a couple of states started banning the practice.) Walgreens still does (in states where it isn't banned from doing so).

https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/pharmacy/walgreens-tes...

> "The safety of our patients is very important, but we also have to do what our customers are requiring us to do," Walgreens CEO Stefano Pessina told the WSJ. "We see that when we don’t sell tobacco, we have a lot of [negative] reactions."

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#82

Post by AlbertCory »

I've now known two people quite well, who either had cancer or their spouses did. Both of them went all-in for the woo-woo. One went to Mexico for it. Both are dead now.

If you make it illegal in the US, they'll just get it from another country. Because some people are just susceptible to this stuff.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#83

Post by blendergeek »

borbtactics wrote: post #17

I still don't understand why these can be sold in American pharmacies.

If the homeopathic remedies don't harm anyone (I know that some have, this comment only references the remedies that don't), what is the problem with them being sold and used?

Many cold medicines have side effects, some are even abused recreationaly. Given that human bodies tend to recover with or without cold medicine (and given the shaky legs that Phenylephrine stands on), what is the issue with people using "fake medicine"?

Homeopathic remedies cannot be abused recreationaly. They aren't precursors to meth. They are better in every way (except the don't work better than a placebo). But, if all a patient needs is a placebo (people recover from the common cold just fine without medicine), homeopathic remedies are perfect.

Remember the hippocrattic oath: First of all, do no harm. Safe, well prepared homeopathic remedies shouldn't do harm. Many cold medicines do.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#84

Post by TillE »

pixelpoet wrote: post #2

I wish more German doctors would acknowledge what utter quackery homeopathy is. Three separate doctors wanted to prescribe me homeopathy stuff last year, ended up not getting any help at all.

I like the German doctors who offer acupuncture and aromatherapy and such. It's just as nonsensical, but at least it's probably relaxing.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#85

Post by vikramkr »

explaininjs wrote: post #37
borbtactics wrote: post #17

I still don't understand why these can be sold in American pharmacies.

Because every bottle is clearly labeled “The FDA has not evaluated this for treating any condition”. There are a great many products that the FDA hasn’t evaluated that are still sold, why should these be any different?

It's the other way around, the 'FDA has not evaluated' text is indicating that these products are different and part of a special loophole created just for them: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_Supplement_Health_and_...

The reason that these get to make health claims and stuff without regulation, and get special treatment, is lobbying resulting in that act. Otherwise they would have been regulated.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#86

Post by rafaelmn »

vog wrote: post #50
pizza234 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're even covered by some insurance plans. A friend of mine is an orthopedic surgeon, and they explained to me that for mild problems, which would normally heal on their own, it's cheaper to cover a placebo rather than real medication.

While I hear this argumentation a lot, I still struggle with this: If you have "mild problems, which would normally heal on their own", buying no medication at all would be even cheaper. And from an ethical point of view, the idea of financing a whole (homeopathic) industry that uses your money to produce fake science, even with a single cent, should make one shudder, shouldn't it?

> If you have "mild problems, which would normally heal on their own", buying no medication at all would be even cheaper.

But placebos actually outperform no intervention.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#87

Post by dymk »

blendergeek wrote: post #83
borbtactics wrote: post #17

I still don't understand why these can be sold in American pharmacies.

If the homeopathic remedies don't harm anyone (I know that some have, this comment only references the remedies that don't), what is the problem with them being sold and used? Many cold medicines have side effects, some are even abused recreationaly. Given that human bodies tend to recover with or without cold medicine (and given the shaky legs that Phenylephrine stands on), what is the issue with people using "fake…

> what is the issue with people using "fake medicine"?

Because people are being tricked into thinking they’re taking medicine, preventing them from seeking out medical care.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#88

Post by vikramkr »

jfengel wrote: post #51
explaininjs wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because every bottle is clearly labeled “The FDA has not evaluated this for treating any condition”. There are a great many products that the FDA hasn’t evaluated that are still sold, why should these be any different?

Because a lot of those bottles also make claims that are in violation of the FDA rules. The label is not sufficient. They need to avoid making claims that they can treat or diagnose some condition. They do their best to hint at it without crossing the line, and frequently blatantly do cross it. The FDA does not have anywhere near the manpower to enforce it. And when they do finally get around to it, the brand vanishe…

It's not illegal and its not in violation of FDA rules. That disclaimer text is from a specific law that gives them exemption from those rules: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_Supplement_Health_and_...

It's not a manpower issue, it's not a legal issue. It's not against the law because they wrote the law. There is no line they try to avoid crossing because that line was erased by lobbyists in 1994.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#89

Post by vikramkr »

EForEndeavour wrote: post #63
underseacables wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's considered a dietary supplement, which is governed by the dietary supplement health enforcement act, which in turn classifies dietary supplements as a food product.

Very much false. 1. Under the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act, homeopathic products are subject to the same requirements related to approval, adulteration and misbranding as other drug products. https://www.fda.gov/drugs/information-drug-class/homeopathic... 2. Homeopathic products are "classified as either over-the-counter (OTC) or prescription medicines." https://www.chpa.org/about-consumer-healthcare/faqs/faq…

from that same link:

> There are no FDA-approved products labeled as homeopathic; this means that any product labeled as homeopathic is being marketed in the U.S. without FDA evaluation for safety or effectiveness.

Re: Research into homeopathy: data falsification, fabrication and manipulation

#90

Post by vog »

rafaelmn wrote: post #86
vog wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I hear this argumentation a lot, I still struggle with this: If you have "mild problems, which would normally heal on their own", buying no medication at all would be even cheaper. And from an ethical point of view, the idea of financing a whole (homeopathic) industry that uses your money to produce fake science, even with a single cent, should make one shudder, shouldn't it?

> If you have "mild problems, which would normally heal on their own", buying no medication at all would be even cheaper. But placebos actually outperform no intervention.

Okay, fair point.

But then, why prescribe the most expensive placebos where you co-finance societal harmful behavior, rather than just prescribing the "harmless" placebos that are not homeopathy, which are usually even cheaper and don't have any ideological overhead?

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