The joy of reading books you don't understand • Hacker News Board

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#191

Post by borroka » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 5:37 PM UTC

joaorico wrote: post #148

Kafka [1] on which types of book to read: "I believe one should only read those books which bite and sting. If the book we are reading does not wake us up with a blow to the head, then why read the book? To make us happy, as you write? My God, we would be just as happy if we had no books, and those books that make us happy, we could write ourselves if necessary. But we need the books that affect us like a disaster, t…

"If the book we are reading does not wake us up with a blow to the head, then why read the book?" --

That's the authorial feeling of self-importance making itself visible. Why read the book? Because it might be enjoyable, a pastime, something that makes us dream, reflect, cry, or connect some dots in our lives through a parallel representation of feelings or ideas. There are many reasons, and the "blow to the head" will not and should not be the main reason, especially for older people who have seen some water flowing under the bridge and see the shock factor as artfully constructed and therefore much less provocative than the author intended it to be.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#192

Post by borroka » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 5:54 PM UTC

alberto_ol wrote: post #87

shaggie76 wrote: post #34

I cannot remember the books I've read any more than the meals I have eaten; even so, they have made me. ― Ralph Waldo Emerson

It is not certain that the quote is from Ralph Waldo Emerson. https://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/06/20/books/

But also, who knows if it is true? And why only books and not everything we have done in life? And why should Ralph Waldo Emerson, assuming the quote is his, know more about this than anyone else?

The hours of history classes in elementary, middle, and high school, when we discussed the Roman Republic and the Empire and before that the Egyptians and the Assyrians and memorized the names, perhaps formed and made us, even if we do not remember a single date, only the names of Cleopatra and Caesar, and we could not find the location of Carthage even if our lives depended on it. Or maybe they did nothing to most of us, which is the more parsimonious view.

When I was a child, a whole debate emerged about the risk of developing a violent personality after watching movies and reading comic books in which violence and gore were shown quite freely. As far as I know, this development of a dangerous, antisocial personality never happened, because, dare I say it, we can distinguish fact from fiction, and everything we ingest, food or media, is modulated by our history, family, genetics, culture, and friends and enemies.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#193

Post by k2enemy » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 6:33 PM UTC

jyunwai wrote: post #10

A useful habit that I've begun to follow with more complicated books—especially when reading them out of personal interest—is to actively avoid taking notes or worrying about background material on a first read. I've recently read and greatly enjoyed a historical fiction novel called "Augustus" written by John Edward Williams and published in 1972. On the surface level, it's about the events of the life of Augustus C…

If you enjoyed Williams's Augustus, do give Stoner and Butcher's Crossing a read. I "enjoyed" them even more than Augustus. Enjoyed is in quotes because they are both emotionally devastating -- Stoner more so than Butcher's Crossing. I didn't feel like myself for a week after reading Stoner and a decade later I still often think about it.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#194

Post by lukan » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 6:42 PM UTC

sfink wrote: post #188

lukan wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Americans precede anything negative with three nice comments; French, Dutch, Israelis, and Germans get straight to the point; Latin Americans and Asians are steeped in hierarchy; Scandinavians think the best boss is just one of the crowd. It's no surprise that when they try and talk to each other, chaos breaks out." Oh, it is a book about stereotypes. Well, as a german it seems I have to get straight to the point, I…

If you would like an answer to that, then I would suggest reading the section titled "Being open to individual differences is not enough", and perhaps the quoted passage in the later section "Tasting the water you swim in". You're probably less "German" than she thinks you are, and more "German" than you think you are, but that's not incompatible with what she says. Don't mistake the blurb for the content. I agree th…

Thanks, that is a more nuanced perspective, so maybe I should give it a try.

"You're probably less "German" than she thinks you are, and more "German" than you think you are"

Possible. I am definitely "german" in many ways. I positivly associate with the "thinker and philosopher" tradition. But I hate beer culture.

But I also still have a unconscious deep rooted believe, that only german engeneering is good. But when I notice that, I stop with "wtf? I know that is BS". Those are the stereotypes I want to get away from. But when other people see me mainly as "german" - they push me into this role.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#195

Post by dudinax » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 7:12 PM UTC

techostritch wrote: post #190

joaorico wrote: post #148

Kafka [1] on which types of book to read: "I believe one should only read those books which bite and sting. If the book we are reading does not wake us up with a blow to the head, then why read the book? To make us happy, as you write? My God, we would be just as happy if we had no books, and those books that make us happy, we could write ourselves if necessary. But we need the books that affect us like a disaster, t…

I don’t know if I’m taking Kafka too literally here, but the books that I read that bite and sting probably fall into two categories. Things that are cynically written in bad faith and things that are hopeless and callous. Torture porn bites and stings, reading hacky partisan politics bites and stings. Anything that makes me feel stupider after reading it bites and stings. The things that I think that he wants to say…

Kafka'd want you to get tougher so some hack can't hurt you.

"Those things fill me with joy and wonder they are just so few and far between."

Yes, but that's what you should be looking for.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#196

Post by jasinjames » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 7:13 PM UTC

the__alchemist wrote: post #155

I think there is a limit. If it's a topic you can look things up about (Maybe something technical where you haven't read the prerequisites.). The initial example from the article is interesting, in that you can learn so much about history with the looked-up context, but you can still follow and enjoy the books without it - you will just not know which characters and events were real! I think you will probably remembe…

For the divine comedy I can recommend the Robert Durling english translation. Each canto has a large section of notes which give all of that context and various interpretations in condensed form. Really excellent stuff.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#197

Post by lanstin » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 7:16 PM UTC

brookst wrote: post #185

PaulRobinson wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This made me think of Umberto Eco’s Foucault’s Pendulum , where you find yourself thinking “I need to look some of this stuff up, it’s becoming hard to know if I understand it all”, but that is part of the satirical commentary he wanted to make - it’s very meta, very good, not knowing all of the esoteric references is the exact point.

Foucault’s is amazing. It’s a great story, but it also delivers a visceral experience that really mirrors what the characters are feeling. One of the best “medium is the message” books.

I think that property is essential to really good books. The running of Aragorn and Legolas and Gimli is a long boring slogto read. The trek up Mt Doom is agonizing.

The transformation of writing from the awesome kids tale of Sorcerer's Stone thru the awkwardly adolescent middle books to the powerfully adult writing and plots of Deathly Hallows is such a effective parallel to the kids growing up.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#198

Post by lanstin » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 7:18 PM UTC

brianush1 wrote: post #82

scubbo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascinating. My first response to your opening paragraph was horror - how on Earth could you hope to really internalize and learn from a textbook without taking notes on it? - before realizing that you were (mostly) referring to fiction or entertainment media. In which case, yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you - don't do anything to pull yourself out of the story, remain immersed and (if it's a well-structured work)…

it works with textbooks too though

Isn't doing the exercises a lot more efficient?

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#199

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 7:19 PM UTC

dudinax wrote: post #195

techostritch wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know if I’m taking Kafka too literally here, but the books that I read that bite and sting probably fall into two categories. Things that are cynically written in bad faith and things that are hopeless and callous. Torture porn bites and stings, reading hacky partisan politics bites and stings. Anything that makes me feel stupider after reading it bites and stings. The things that I think that he wants to say…

Kafka'd want you to get tougher so some hack can't hurt you. "Those things fill me with joy and wonder they are just so few and far between." Yes, but that's what you should be looking for.

[deleted]

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#200

Post by lanstin » Thu, Jul 04, 2024, 7:21 PM UTC

Blackstrat wrote: post #137

jdswain wrote: post #50

The article title reminded me of when I was young and used to read Byte Magazine. Byte used to cover a wide range of topics, and could get quite technical, but the big thing that is vastly different to today is that you would get a monthly digest of articles that were selected by the editors, not by yourself. And I used to read it cover to cover. There was a lot I didn't understand, but also I feel like I gained a wi…

Byte magazine was a terrific publication. There's nothing similar in print these days that I'm aware of. Certainly, Byte couldn't be accused of dumbing down the content to reach a wider audience, unlike many of today's supposedly technical magazines. I learned a lot from Byte and experimented frequently with the knowledge and understanding I gained from Byte.

I wrote a lot of basic and 6502 assembler code inspired by Byte. So much learning.