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The joy of reading books you don't understand

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Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#181
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you instead see it as a dictionary to be used when someone you're interacting with isn't behaving the way you had expected, it will make more sense" Well, to be honest, I doubt that. By now I have read some examples from the book and the way he uses nationality in absolute terms and placing them on scales is deeply offputting to me. So far I often experienced situations where people behaved differently, than what…

Culture correlates strongly with nationality, you are throwing away a very powerful tool just for an ideological reason. And no, often it is too late once you have already made the mistake, first impressions matter and you massively improve your chances if you take their nationality into account. Sure they might take your nationality into account and adapt to you instead, as you say that often works for you, good, bu…

"but some people actually wants to learn to adapt to others"

Yes. And I said I don't want to learn by fixating on nationality. Not that I don't take it into account.

And the quote above from the cover already talks about "asians". Even less meaningless. Not completely meaningless, but allmost. And all I read about the book seems like strongly fixating on nationality. Maybe it goes deeper at some point. I only judged from what I read. And I am aware of the potential irony given the topic, but so far I think, I understood enough.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#182
post #151
post #53

This reminds me of something that I heard once from a Chinese teacher. I can't vouch for the accuracy of it, but he was definitely on to something : In the West, it is assumed that it is the speaker's job to make himself understood to his listeners. In the East, it is the other way around. In recent times, it seems like we've gotten even more extreme. The speaker or writer must not only spoon-feed the understanding,…

I am all for the "western" side, where the speaker has to provide the understanding, motivation and entertainment, especially in the modern day where information is easily accessible. It doesn't mean that no effort should be expected of listeners, more like unnecessary effort should be minimized. An example of unnecessary effort would be using a foreign language listeners have no particular interest in learning. Pers…

I didn't intend to claim that the "Eastern" way is unconditionally better. I'm just used to the Western way of thinking, so it's a novel perspective that I keep finding applies in more situations than I expect.

Making things understandable is good. It's just not always the right thing to optimize for. Which is very different from saying that complexity is always better. Or as you said it:

> It doesn't mean that no effort should be expected of listeners, more like unnecessary effort should be minimized.

If all the information that needs to be conveyed is in the material, then making it accessible, understandable, and digestible probably is most important. Again, as you said:

> it is more efficient to have the speaker spend the effort being understood than having the listeners spend it understanding.

But it's kind of the difference between a sack of gold and the proverbial Golden Goose. For some things, you can't get all the benefit at once. As someone else here brought up with the idea of reading a book 100 times, some books/lectures/whatever give you more, and something different, every time you go back to them. It's like you need to incorporate the previous pass into your head before you can peel back a layer and grasp the next one down. It's a weird experience; with the same Chinese teacher I mentioned, I've many times had the experience of re-listening and hearing something totally different than I remembered. I sometimes doubt that I've ever listened to that one before. I think partly that's because the information is not coming just from the material, it's coming from the interaction between my mind and the material, and my mind is changing all the time. (Not necessarily for the better, but I'll leave that aside...) So I disagree that this applies universally:

> But now, almost everything is a few clicks away on the internet, and the entire point of having a speaker is to present the information is an easily digestible manner.

It really isn't. A lot of stuff is, so much that we get overwhelmed and blinded by it to the point that we assume that it must cover everything. But some things are not out there, or at least not out there for easy picking. Nobody has yet been able to write up such a clear and accessible description of how to ride a bicycle that someone could read it and then ride off on a bike their very first time. And that's the rule, not the exception, even with cerebral subjects like calculus or programming or whatever.

It's not the difficulty that provides the extra value; you're not going to communicate more by making it artificially hard (as with your foreign language example)[1]. What helps is getting the learner to process more deeply, or apply the knowledge, or practice, or "use it in anger", or compete with it, or whatever way you want to say roughly the same thing. Our brains are not landfills of facts that benefit from the more you dump into them. They are coordinated systems of knowledge and behavior, where truly adding to one place requires adjusting everything else a little or a lot to accommodate.

[1] Actually, you might, but only because it slows the reader down enough for things to sink in. Any other mechanism would work as well, and a mechanism that adds something else to the mix like tests or reviews is going to be overall more effective and efficient than artificial friction.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#183
post #81
post #53

This reminds me of something that I heard once from a Chinese teacher. I can't vouch for the accuracy of it, but he was definitely on to something : In the West, it is assumed that it is the speaker's job to make himself understood to his listeners. In the East, it is the other way around. In recent times, it seems like we've gotten even more extreme. The speaker or writer must not only spoon-feed the understanding,…

my Chinese teacher supplied me with this supposedly ancient piece of Chinese scholarly wisdom: read any book a hundred times, and its meaning will be obvious. i have found this to work amazingly well -- particularly with poorly written technical papers. your comment also reminded me of this one time I was hanging out and watching the Matrix (for the 100th time probably) with a film maker friend. and he was pointing o…

aka ‘intensified continuity editing’ which is the modern evolution of the ‘Hollywood style’. David Bordwell out of UW-Madison did a lot of work on this.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#184
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I finished Infinite Jest without taking notes. I definitely missed a lot of stuff but I loved the experience and it ended up being one of my favorite books. I think Infinite Jest is a great example for this sort of thing because I later realized that I had completely missed the entire main plot. By the author: > There is an ending as far as I’m concerned. Certain kind of parallel lines are supposed to start convergin…

If you ever get the urge to read Infinite Jest again (which I highly recommend—a second read is easily more enjoyable than the first), the Infinite Jest Wiki includes some page-by-page annotations that are nice to have on hand. https://infinitejest.wallacewiki.com/david-foster-wallace/in... Probably overkill to look up every little thing (and most of the annotations are just defining SAT-worthy words anyway), but I l…

+1 for re-reading. I’d also suggest the audiobook as an alternate form that is differently accessible. Certainly it’s easier to follow some of the changing perspectives as the narrator does a good job of voicing differently.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#185
post #10

A useful habit that I've begun to follow with more complicated books—especially when reading them out of personal interest—is to actively avoid taking notes or worrying about background material on a first read. I've recently read and greatly enjoyed a historical fiction novel called "Augustus" written by John Edward Williams and published in 1972. On the surface level, it's about the events of the life of Augustus C…

This made me think of Umberto Eco’s Foucault’s Pendulum , where you find yourself thinking “I need to look some of this stuff up, it’s becoming hard to know if I understand it all”, but that is part of the satirical commentary he wanted to make - it’s very meta, very good, not knowing all of the esoteric references is the exact point.

Foucault’s is amazing. It’s a great story, but it also delivers a visceral experience that really mirrors what the characters are feeling. One of the best “medium is the message” books.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#186
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I finished Infinite Jest without taking notes. I definitely missed a lot of stuff but I loved the experience and it ended up being one of my favorite books. I think Infinite Jest is a great example for this sort of thing because I later realized that I had completely missed the entire main plot. By the author: > There is an ending as far as I’m concerned. Certain kind of parallel lines are supposed to start convergin…

I like the short form stuff DFW wrote for Harper's Magazine. The one about his trip to the state fair with an old flame is sublime.

Ticket To The Fair (1993) [0] -- a superb read, indeed.

0: https://harpers.org/wp-content/uploads/HarpersMagazine-1994-...

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#187
post #17
post #10

A useful habit that I've begun to follow with more complicated books—especially when reading them out of personal interest—is to actively avoid taking notes or worrying about background material on a first read. I've recently read and greatly enjoyed a historical fiction novel called "Augustus" written by John Edward Williams and published in 1972. On the surface level, it's about the events of the life of Augustus C…

I finished Infinite Jest without taking notes. I definitely missed a lot of stuff but I loved the experience and it ended up being one of my favorite books. I think Infinite Jest is a great example for this sort of thing because I later realized that I had completely missed the entire main plot. By the author: > There is an ending as far as I’m concerned. Certain kind of parallel lines are supposed to start convergin…

Holy shit. Thanks for that link.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#188
post #64
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is because the USA is low context while China is high context. For more about this and related topics, read https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00IHGVQ9I/ref=tmm_kin_swatch... .

"Americans precede anything negative with three nice comments; French, Dutch, Israelis, and Germans get straight to the point; Latin Americans and Asians are steeped in hierarchy; Scandinavians think the best boss is just one of the crowd. It's no surprise that when they try and talk to each other, chaos breaks out." Oh, it is a book about stereotypes. Well, as a german it seems I have to get straight to the point, I…

If you would like an answer to that, then I would suggest reading the section titled "Being open to individual differences is not enough", and perhaps the quoted passage in the later section "Tasting the water you swim in".

You're probably less "German" than she thinks you are, and more "German" than you think you are, but that's not incompatible with what she says. Don't mistake the blurb for the content. I agree that the blurb is a bit obnoxious, but then, its function is to appeal to (or piss off) someone enough that they'll pause and consider buying the book (maybe if only to prove how wrong it is).

I have not read the book but I have heard the author speak on the topic, and in my opinion she adequately addresses your complaint. I personally still find her message a bit oversimplified, but isn't that what we're talking about? That's what you have to do in order to get your readers/listeners to understand what you're trying to communicate!

Or do you? As in the original article here, there can be benefit to reading things where the author doesn't try to make it easy. Perhaps they put down the messy truth in disconnected fragments, or they pile up lots of examples that don't quite fit any simple orthogonal dimensions of explanation. Such compendiums incorporate deep insight to anyone willing and able to put in the effort to derive it for themselves. Let the reader figure it out by meditating on them, or rereading them 100 times, or trying them out in practice, or whatever.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#189
post #62
post #53

This reminds me of something that I heard once from a Chinese teacher. I can't vouch for the accuracy of it, but he was definitely on to something : In the West, it is assumed that it is the speaker's job to make himself understood to his listeners. In the East, it is the other way around. In recent times, it seems like we've gotten even more extreme. The speaker or writer must not only spoon-feed the understanding,…

That is because the USA is low context while China is high context. For more about this and related topics, read https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00IHGVQ9I/ref=tmm_kin_swatch... .

I have not read the book but I have heard Erin speak, and I do find the high/low context dimension to be very powerful in explaining a great many things. I don't see how it applies all that well to this one, though, other than perhaps explaining one way in which something can come across as dense or cryptic. Specifically, you could use it to say that a text is embedded in the context in which it was written, and so for example what is not said can speak louder than what is said.

But I don't see how it explains differences in what is expected of a listener/reader/learner. I may very well just be missing it.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#190

Kafka [1] on which types of book to read: "I believe one should only read those books which bite and sting. If the book we are reading does not wake us up with a blow to the head, then why read the book? To make us happy, as you write? My God, we would be just as happy if we had no books, and those books that make us happy, we could write ourselves if necessary. But we need the books that affect us like a disaster, t…

I don’t know if I’m taking Kafka too literally here, but the books that I read that bite and sting probably fall into two categories. Things that are cynically written in bad faith and things that are hopeless and callous. Torture porn bites and stings, reading hacky partisan politics bites and stings. Anything that makes me feel stupider after reading it bites and stings.

The things that I think that he wants to say, the inconvenient truths, the things that make me see the world in a whole new way, that challenge everything I believe in. Those things fill me with joy and wonder they are just so few and far between.

Maybe the thing he’s getting at is the existential dread? The truth that nothing you do is meaningful? The staring into the abyss? In which case maybe in moderation, but I fundamentally disagree.

in a sense I wonder, if this is what he means, what a weird way to view life, that those things that challenge you are negative.

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