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The joy of reading books you don't understand

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Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#171
This reminds me of the recent "Neuromancer" discussion here on HN: The early cyberpunk writing style, and especially that of William Gibson, made extensive use of unexplained technical terms. The story was occasionally hard to follow. But that was part of "cyberpunk", at least initially. If you were really about to read a report from a different possible world, you also wouldn't understand everything. In reality not everything serves some central plot. There are always superfluous details, and (especially for fictional settings) things that are hard to understand for the outsider.

I remember reading, a few years ago, Amazon reviews of the 1990 William Gibson/Bruce Sterling novel "The Difference Engine". Apparently most people expected a normal novel, just with a "steampunk" setting, so naturally they were disappointed and complained about the book being confusing. That's because it's a cyberpunk novel. Which is a literary genre, not merely a setting like steampunk. (The latter term didn't even exist when the book came out.)

I remember Stanisław Lem (an SF author well-known outside the English speaking world) said approximate this about historical novels: Historical novels have the advantage of depth, they can reference a world that is much more complex than required for their plot, they can set themselves in the deep complexity of actual history -- whereas fantasy and sci-fi books must always rely on their own made-up world, which almost necessarily looks flat and shallow in comparison, even if it seems spectacular on the surface.

I really came to understand this when I read Umberto Eco's "The Name of the Rose". All the historical details are so intricate that they are almost impossible to match by a novelist writing about a fantasy world or the far future.

This is, perhaps, also why The Lord of the Rings is such a great fantasy story, and why most other fantasy stories fall short in comparison: Tolkien didn't just write a novel. He invented a fictional language first, then an elaborate fictional history around it, and the Lord of the Rings is really just a small part of this story near the end. When reading the book, you constantly read allusions to "historical details" about things that happened thousands of years ago in Valinor, Beleriand, Númenor, in certain ancient wars etc. These "superfluous details" are occasionally hard to understand (except if you read Tolkien's posthumous "Silmarillion", which his son compiled from fragments) but they approximate something like the depth that usually only a historical novel can achieve.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#172
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in academia, and the pessimistic/cynic standpoint is that university is not about teaching, but about filtering. Making a lecture "fun", comprehensible, or even "innovative" may not have the desired effect of improving the level of understanding among all students, because a fun and easy course is a worse filter than a hard course. Personally I always learned the most in courses that were very hard and had a n…

If you're putting in all of the effort to make the material make sense to you, what is the role of the educator? If the way to learn things is to read a book a bunch of times, what value does my tuition money get me? A syllabus? The ability to ask questions of a possibly poor communicater?

> If the way to learn things is to read a book a bunch of times, what value does my tuition money get me?

The real answer? You gained a piece of paper which certifies that you are educated in a field.

Depending on the school you may also gain access to an insular professional network.

That's pretty much it. The notion that university degrees are worth anything more than that is moderately outdated.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems geographical/not uniform. In UK some schools just pocket the gifted and talented funds and deliver nothing.

It definitely isn't uniform in the US - it isn't even uniform in schools near each other. Schooling systems between countries are very difficult to compare. I just learned that some UK schools have gifted and talented programs and funds, for example.

The UK doesn't even have a single education system (e.g. exams for university entrance and the length of first degrees).

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#174
post #113
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read this comment before the post, and now I feel bad. I watched a spy movie from the 1960s recently with someone. We got 20 minutes in before she was confused about why the movie is just about a depressed drunk who lost his job in a spy agency, before my movie-watching accomplice looked up the plot of the movie on Wikipedia. Spoiler alert, there's a twist, and the movie didn't tell the viewer that. It's interestin…

I also strongly suspect you watched "The Spy Who Came in From the Cold". If you enjoyed this movie and the way it is narrated, please do yourself a favor and watch all the BBC mini series from the 70ies/80ies based on John Le Carré books, namely "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy", "Smiley's People", and "A Perfect Spy" (or read the books, John Le Carré is an excellent writer, and "A Perfect Spy" can be compared to works by…

I think these movies are attempting to put you in the position of a spy, where you need to pay attention and infer motives from actions, and actions from motives.

The IPCRESS File is probably my favorite in the genre of cold war spy thrillers. It's slightly more on the fantastical side of the spectrum, but still so good it makes grocery shopping interesting.

The camera work is just brilliant, with many shots taken from angles that emulate covert surveillance, yet still managing to beautifully frame the scenes. Since this is implied, but never spoken, some reviewers seem to have missed this aspect, and just though they were shooting scenes through building windows for the sake of it.

Even just the opening scene says so much about the main character on without him or anyone else speaking a single word: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBCqP7R42K0

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#175

Hegel's Phenomenology of the Spirit, Marx's Capital, Foucault's work, von Neumann and Morgenstern' Game Theory, and the Perl 6 Apocalypses and Exegeses from the early 2000's.

Deleuze, Bourdieu, Malebranche, ...

I find it incredibly satisfying to stretch my brain with books that are inaccessible on the first read.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The book and the movie are quite rough, raw and extradry - i don’t mean this in a bad way. The mood reminds me more of eastern productions like tarkowsky (stalker) and the like.

"Bond for grownups"

Also called "stale beer" spy fiction to emphasize its lack of glamour and that settings like dive bars are more common in it than fancy casinos and cocktail parties.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SpyFiction

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#177
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll see this often on the Internet: proof? Proof? Citation? Boy, no one's going to do any work for you. If you believe the wrong thing, the consequences are your own. In fact, only people with no better use for their time will spend their time teaching you. This means you're being taught only by people whose time is worthless or for whom it is useful for you to believe in something. If you're not paying for the kn…

I only wish for people to take a "little bit" of a charitable interpretation of my comments. Lot of time they simply find one little gap, wrong wording, etc and just run with it and dismiss my entire comment. I do it too, sometimes, but I like to think I do it for a reason. Alas, we're all humans: greedy, and biased towards our own views.

Precisely. They usually come to you with misbelief and intentional miscomprehension. I don’t think it is worth convincing someone of the truth if they insist on finding a way to believe a falsehood. Let them believe.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#178
post #163

I get the point. Only a few days ago I watched the restored version of "Jeanne Dielman,...", to its full length of 3 hours and 20 minutes. Nothing happens in that movie, absolutely nothing at all, except for the registration of a housewife's daily routine and a few conversations with her son. Until the last quarter of an hour. You start with boredom, wanting to stop and forget all about it. But then curiosity kicks i…

There are also books and movies which don't even have plot, or where the plot isn't very important, where the journey is the destination. An example is the film Amarcord (1973).

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#179
post #53

This reminds me of something that I heard once from a Chinese teacher. I can't vouch for the accuracy of it, but he was definitely on to something : In the West, it is assumed that it is the speaker's job to make himself understood to his listeners. In the East, it is the other way around. In recent times, it seems like we've gotten even more extreme. The speaker or writer must not only spoon-feed the understanding,…

[deleted]

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#180
post #53

This reminds me of something that I heard once from a Chinese teacher. I can't vouch for the accuracy of it, but he was definitely on to something : In the West, it is assumed that it is the speaker's job to make himself understood to his listeners. In the East, it is the other way around. In recent times, it seems like we've gotten even more extreme. The speaker or writer must not only spoon-feed the understanding,…

with Poetry, the onus is still on the reader to get something out of it, even in the west. I recently read "Pale Fire". (without the preface and Nabukov's commentary). I enjoyed it thoroughly, without understanding a lot, which is fine.
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