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The UK's Brexit dream is dead

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41–50 of 85 posts

Re: The UK's Brexit dream is dead

#41

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The UK had an arguably better deal than everyone else; the UK Rebate. This kind of made sense at the time it was introduced (the UK would have been disadvantaged relative to other large economies without it, due to differences in its economy) but had long since ceased making sense. Due to the UK's veto it was impossible to get rid of it. There's no real prospect that they'd be given it again if they applied to rejoin; that would make no sense.

Re: The UK's Brexit dream is dead

#42
> Sorry Boris, your Euroskeptic vision has failed in so many ways.

> Boris Johnson is out of parliament, making millions from speeches and newspaper columns.

I'm pretty sure Boris thinks he succeeded just fine. The rest of the country, not so much.

> All the key Vote Leave characters have left the stage.

I get why you'd want to try to forget about Nigel Farage but the article even has a graph showing how spectacularly Reform is surging in the polls. They'll probably not quite get to the level they need to take a chunk of seats, as their voters are probably quite spread out, but if they get anything close to these numbers in the vote today, that would be pretty impressive. Politically at least.

Re: The UK's Brexit dream is dead

#43

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Bold statement. Based on what? Being better at tactics everyone would have used in the past if they had the might?

Fast forward to today and you can still come up with an easy list of 20 countries that exhibit human rights abuses on their own people on a day to day basis.

Re: The UK's Brexit dream is dead

#44

I've always thought actually Brexit supported the left much more than the right. I think we see that with two of Labour's key manifesto pledges would be either impossible or very difficult to do with EU/SM membership. Firstly - VAT cannot be levied on private school fees under EU law. Potentially you could argue for some exemption but I think it would be very slow. Secondly - Labour's idea of "nationalising" the UK r…

> VAT cannot be levied on private school fees under EU law. Given the long history of people the in the UK spouting absolute nonsense about what is or is not possible under EU law, do you have a reliable source for that claim?

The EU VAT directive is long misunderstood. Countries have extreme room for interpretation of the VAT rules. For example, Ireland beat the UK on making period products tax exempt by about 20 years, something supposedly disallowed by EU directives. I know Greece charges VAT on fee-paying schools, and the EU doesn't do anything about it.

Re: The UK's Brexit dream is dead

#46

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This just goes to the core problem of the binary referendum. You might say that Brexit was about a specific set of policy goals that you wanted to pursue once we were out of the EU, but that's not how the vote worked. You got Brexit.

You weren't promised any specific policies in the aftermath, or rather to be accurate you were - you were promised a plethora of inconsistent, contradictory and mutually exclusive policies. You got Liam Fox's easiest trade deal ever, you got Dan Hannan's "absolutely nobody is suggesting we would give up our position in the free market in Europe". You got your Canada plus and your Norway minus. You took back control on immigration!

May I suggest, given that what you were told in the lead up to the referendum was clearly self-contradictory nonsense, we might have predicted exactly this implementation.

Re: The UK's Brexit dream is dead

#47
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... Eh? Is this the new line now? Brexit was a disaster not because it was an extremely silly idea, but rather due to saboteurs? I mean, I suppose you can tell yourself that if you want, but...

> Brexit was a disaster not because it was an extremely silly idea, but rather due to saboteurs? The mostly likely things that has made Brexit not work, if it could ever have worked, and other than the people in charge being terrible at their jobs, are the enormous headwinds of Covid and the war in Ukraine.

I mean, if anything, the invasion of Ukraine likely _masked_ problems for longer; continental Europe was far harder hit than the UK by energy deficits (most UK gas comes from the North Sea fields and Norway, and it also had LPG importation facilities on a greater scale than did, say, Germany on the eve of the war). Without it, the economic divergence would look worse, not better.

Covid was largely in the rear-view mirror by the time the UK _really_ left; the really disruptive changes didn't start til mid 2021.

Re: The UK's Brexit dream is dead

#48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> VAT cannot be levied on private school fees under EU law. Given the long history of people the in the UK spouting absolute nonsense about what is or is not possible under EU law, do you have a reliable source for that claim?

Please see the guidelines[0] on how to treat people. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Seems a reasonable question to me, not cross-examining.

Re: The UK's Brexit dream is dead

#49
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> VAT cannot be levied on private school fees under EU law. Given the long history of people the in the UK spouting absolute nonsense about what is or is not possible under EU law, do you have a reliable source for that claim?

The EU VAT directive is long misunderstood. Countries have extreme room for interpretation of the VAT rules. For example, Ireland beat the UK on making period products tax exempt by about 20 years, something supposedly disallowed by EU directives. I know Greece charges VAT on fee-paying schools, and the EU doesn't do anything about it.

Ireland, in fairness, has a history of doing tax things just this side of the law, occasionally straying into the wrong side. Notable examples would be corporation tax prior to 2013 (see the Apple thing) and VRT (the EC has actually commented on this, essentially saying that it's legal but against the spirit of the law).

But yeah, very little stopping the UK following Ireland's lead, particularly on relatively trivial matters like the private school fees thing.

Re: The UK's Brexit dream is dead

#50
I think in some ways Labour is going to deliver Brexit in a way that the Tories just couldn't. All the promises that Brexiteers made were the upside of deals, but without the willingness to pay the cost. Yes, our regulations could diverge and in some cases we might have good reason to. But Brexiteers want frictionless trade, and you can't diverge and have no friction. So we just didn't chose. We didn't diverge, because that would be too difficult, but we also didn't take diverging off the table because that was meant to be our big chance!

So labour will decide, they'll decide to align on some rules in exchange for reducing some friction. That is what Brexit meant. It meant tearing up the deal we had with the EU. Now it's torn up, we have to get on with deciding what our new relationship should be.

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