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The joy of reading books you don't understand

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Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#151
post #53

This reminds me of something that I heard once from a Chinese teacher. I can't vouch for the accuracy of it, but he was definitely on to something : In the West, it is assumed that it is the speaker's job to make himself understood to his listeners. In the East, it is the other way around. In recent times, it seems like we've gotten even more extreme. The speaker or writer must not only spoon-feed the understanding,…

I am all for the "western" side, where the speaker has to provide the understanding, motivation and entertainment, especially in the modern day where information is easily accessible. It doesn't mean that no effort should be expected of listeners, more like unnecessary effort should be minimized.

An example of unnecessary effort would be using a foreign language listeners have no particular interest in learning. Personally, I would rather have my math class in a language I am at least fluent it, so that I can focus my attention on the math and not on the language. I also like my teach when they have an understanding of the psychology of learning, so that I can learn more effectively. Entertainment and motivation is part of it. It is spoon-feeding, but that's also how you get people to focus on the heart of the matter.

At higher levels, it becomes less of a consideration, not because it is unimportant, but because at high level, knowledge itself becomes scarce, so you'd be lucky to find someone who really knows his stuff, even if he isn't the best at making it easy for people to understand. So the listen can spare some effort as it is the only way to get that knowledge.

In the old days, knowledge in general was scarce so it made sense to tip the balance in favor of the speaker as you'd be lucky to have a knowledgeable speaker at all. But now, almost everything is a few clicks away on the internet, and the entire point of having a speaker is to present the information is an easily digestible manner. If you want to go "the hard way" you can do it by yourself, papers, textbooks, etc... are everywhere on almost every subject at almost every level, even more so if you embrace piracy.

As for painting, or meaningful art in general, it is also part of the artist job to guide the viewer, not just dump a random idea on canvas, this is just lazy (on the part of the artist). Leave some clues leading to the big idea. Think like a puzzle. Puzzles are designed to be challenging, but they also involve guiding the player so that in the end, they can solve a more difficult challenge than they would have been able to with no help.

Another thing to consider is that in a speaker-listener relationship, there are usually more listeners than there are speakers, so it is more efficient to have the speaker spend the effort being understood than having the listeners spend it understanding.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#152
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, as a german it seems I have to get straight to the point "The Joy of Reading Books You Don't Understand" It seems you didn't even try to understand The Culture Map, and opted for a strawman. > I do not think, thinking in stereotypes this broad is helpful for communicating. You're trying to use it as a cookbook. If you instead see it as a dictionary to be used when someone you're interacting with isn't behavin…

"If you instead see it as a dictionary to be used when someone you're interacting with isn't behaving the way you had expected, it will make more sense" Well, to be honest, I doubt that. By now I have read some examples from the book and the way he uses nationality in absolute terms and placing them on scales is deeply offputting to me. So far I often experienced situations where people behaved differently, than what…

Culture correlates strongly with nationality, you are throwing away a very powerful tool just for an ideological reason.

And no, often it is too late once you have already made the mistake, first impressions matter and you massively improve your chances if you take their nationality into account. Sure they might take your nationality into account and adapt to you instead, as you say that often works for you, good, but some people actually wants to learn to adapt to others.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#153
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read this comment before the post, and now I feel bad. I watched a spy movie from the 1960s recently with someone. We got 20 minutes in before she was confused about why the movie is just about a depressed drunk who lost his job in a spy agency, before my movie-watching accomplice looked up the plot of the movie on Wikipedia. Spoiler alert, there's a twist, and the movie didn't tell the viewer that. It's interestin…

"It's interesting that modern movies have to make you think you understand something, before they pull the curtain back and reveal there's a twist. Otherwise people will get disengaged and stop watching before the twist occurs." I agree with this. For a particularly insidious example see the latest Star Wars series, the Acolyte, by Disney.

Well, I have watched 5 episodes so far, still waiting for the twist. So far I think the Acolyte is pretty dull. My girlfriend checked out after episode 3. Your comment fills me with hope!

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#155
I think there is a limit. If it's a topic you can look things up about (Maybe something technical where you haven't read the prerequisites.). The initial example from the article is interesting, in that you can learn so much about history with the looked-up context, but you can still follow and enjoy the books without it - you will just not know which characters and events were real! I think you will probably remember the history better this way with a fun story-context than wrote memorization, which I believe is a point of the author.

Some material, I feel like I am too stupid for, or my brain is wired so differently from the author I will never make sense of it. Examples: Gravity's Rainbow, and parts 2 + 3 of The Divine Comedy. (Granted, the latter is full of parts where looking up contexts and references will help, but I am not sure what to do with the former; there are rare sections where I can gain a purchase on events transiently, but it mostly passes through without absorption for reasons I don't understand).

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "but my mind immediately went to some of the harder technical writing I've enjoyed [...] math books" What are your favorite Math books, and what texts did you enjoy the most? Could you please share the titles?

My very first was Naive Set Theory by Paul Halmos. Way over my head in 7th(?) grade but my first intro to math beyond pre-algebra stuff. Lately I've enjoyed, but did not finish, the Joy of Abstraction by Eugenia Cheng, on category theory. And there was a differential geometry book whose name I have forgotten but whose exercises I really enjoyed, because I could do them in my head while riding the bus, just by thinkin…

Thanks for your reply.

The Halmos book is on my to-read list for some months. Will bump it!

I also started reading the Cheng book, but I did not finish it either.

Let me know the name of the Diff. Geometry book when you remember it.

And wish you the best on your plans of circling back.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#158
post #118
post #53

This reminds me of something that I heard once from a Chinese teacher. I can't vouch for the accuracy of it, but he was definitely on to something : In the West, it is assumed that it is the speaker's job to make himself understood to his listeners. In the East, it is the other way around. In recent times, it seems like we've gotten even more extreme. The speaker or writer must not only spoon-feed the understanding,…

Oversimplification is bad, but there is a reason why Western/US universities are so much better at teaching students. Imagine your professors and textbooks werent there to teach you, but they were there to show off their knowledge or to prove you that you know nothing. A very known problem in my country is that a professor is not making a lecture to teach you something or to explain you something, the professor wants…

100% agree, the same things happen in Poland and I wish it was closer to US.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#159
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in academia, and the pessimistic/cynic standpoint is that university is not about teaching, but about filtering. Making a lecture "fun", comprehensible, or even "innovative" may not have the desired effect of improving the level of understanding among all students, because a fun and easy course is a worse filter than a hard course. Personally I always learned the most in courses that were very hard and had a n…

If you're putting in all of the effort to make the material make sense to you, what is the role of the educator? If the way to learn things is to read a book a bunch of times, what value does my tuition money get me? A syllabus? The ability to ask questions of a possibly poor communicater?

I paid all this money to get to a beautiful surf spot, and you’re telling me I have to paddle and stand up on my own?!

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's interesting that modern movies have to make you think you understand something, before they pull the curtain back and reveal there's a twist. Otherwise people will get disengaged and stop watching before the twist occurs." I agree with this. For a particularly insidious example see the latest Star Wars series, the Acolyte, by Disney.

Well, I have watched 5 episodes so far, still waiting for the twist. So far I think the Acolyte is pretty dull. My girlfriend checked out after episode 3. Your comment fills me with hope!

So this is just storytelling 101...you don't have to give up the whole story but it does have to be engaging in the meantime...before the _big reveal_. Five dull episodes is not good storytelling and you're probably going to end up disappointed.
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