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The joy of reading books you don't understand

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Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#121

Post by infinitezest »

lqet wrote: post #114
sfink wrote: post #53

This reminds me of something that I heard once from a Chinese teacher. I can't vouch for the accuracy of it, but he was definitely on to something : In the West, it is assumed that it is the speaker's job to make himself understood to his listeners. In the East, it is the other way around. In recent times, it seems like we've gotten even more extreme. The speaker or writer must not only spoon-feed the understanding,…

I work in academia, and the pessimistic/cynic standpoint is that university is not about teaching, but about filtering. Making a lecture "fun", comprehensible, or even "innovative" may not have the desired effect of improving the level of understanding among all students, because a fun and easy course is a worse filter than a hard course. Personally I always learned the most in courses that were very hard and had a n…

If you're putting in all of the effort to make the material make sense to you, what is the role of the educator? If the way to learn things is to read a book a bunch of times, what value does my tuition money get me? A syllabus? The ability to ask questions of a possibly poor communicater?

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#122

Post by Broken_Hippo »

conjectures wrote: post #102
Broken_Hippo wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And so many of those programs were absolutely horrible. I had a lot more homework than my peers and was expected to act more mature. Sorry, but we were all the same age as other kids - we didn't deserve a higher workload (as kids and teens) and we should have been expected to act our age. It was pretty common to make fun of others for not keeping up well enough (struggling not allowed) or for appearing too smart (Not…

Seems geographical/not uniform. In UK some schools just pocket the gifted and talented funds and deliver nothing.

It definitely isn't uniform in the US - it isn't even uniform in schools near each other.

Schooling systems between countries are very difficult to compare. I just learned that some UK schools have gifted and talented programs and funds, for example.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#123

Post by lqet »

infinitezest wrote: post #121
lqet wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work in academia, and the pessimistic/cynic standpoint is that university is not about teaching, but about filtering. Making a lecture "fun", comprehensible, or even "innovative" may not have the desired effect of improving the level of understanding among all students, because a fun and easy course is a worse filter than a hard course. Personally I always learned the most in courses that were very hard and had a n…

If you're putting in all of the effort to make the material make sense to you, what is the role of the educator? If the way to learn things is to read a book a bunch of times, what value does my tuition money get me? A syllabus? The ability to ask questions of a possibly poor communicater?

The cynic answer would be: a highly standardized and comparable filter and testing environment. A more realistic answer: you are guided through and exposed to topics, motivated by exams, and in the end you will have proof that you understand the topics you received grades on. You also have - often direct and personal - access to top-level people in your field.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#124

Post by exe34 »

sfink wrote: post #53

This reminds me of something that I heard once from a Chinese teacher. I can't vouch for the accuracy of it, but he was definitely on to something : In the West, it is assumed that it is the speaker's job to make himself understood to his listeners. In the East, it is the other way around. In recent times, it seems like we've gotten even more extreme. The speaker or writer must not only spoon-feed the understanding,…

the problem is how much shite there is out there to read through. you could read all the monad tutorials in the world but it won't help until you start using them yourself. (admittedly I'm going a step further from your point, not against it).

however, I'd say if I can't understand what an authors trying to say, it makes more sense to find one that I can understand first, and then go back to the more abstruse one.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#125

Post by lukan »

tommiegannert wrote: post #78
lukan wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Americans precede anything negative with three nice comments; French, Dutch, Israelis, and Germans get straight to the point; Latin Americans and Asians are steeped in hierarchy; Scandinavians think the best boss is just one of the crowd. It's no surprise that when they try and talk to each other, chaos breaks out." Oh, it is a book about stereotypes. Well, as a german it seems I have to get straight to the point, I…

> Well, as a german it seems I have to get straight to the point "The Joy of Reading Books You Don't Understand" It seems you didn't even try to understand The Culture Map, and opted for a strawman. > I do not think, thinking in stereotypes this broad is helpful for communicating. You're trying to use it as a cookbook. If you instead see it as a dictionary to be used when someone you're interacting with isn't behavin…

"If you instead see it as a dictionary to be used when someone you're interacting with isn't behaving the way you had expected, it will make more sense"

Well, to be honest, I doubt that. By now I have read some examples from the book and the way he uses nationality in absolute terms and placing them on scales is deeply offputting to me. So far I often experienced situations where people behaved differently, than what I would have expected - but I do not recall any situation where placing those people on mathematical sounding scales would have explained their reactions better. With some thinking and asking they all could be explained and resolved in a normal way. To me the whole thing sounds like something that sounds good and easy on first glance - but falls apart when you look deeper. The author as a "international business expert" likely knows his way around different cultures simply by experience - not because he makes cultural meassurments in his head. But he made a goodselling book, so good for him. And good for you that you find value in it. I don't. So maybe I "didn't even try to understand The Culture Map" - or maybe I just have a different opinion.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#126

Post by Xfx7028 »

rvba wrote: post #118
sfink wrote: post #53

This reminds me of something that I heard once from a Chinese teacher. I can't vouch for the accuracy of it, but he was definitely on to something : In the West, it is assumed that it is the speaker's job to make himself understood to his listeners. In the East, it is the other way around. In recent times, it seems like we've gotten even more extreme. The speaker or writer must not only spoon-feed the understanding,…

Oversimplification is bad, but there is a reason why Western/US universities are so much better at teaching students. Imagine your professors and textbooks werent there to teach you, but they were there to show off their knowledge or to prove you that you know nothing. A very known problem in my country is that a professor is not making a lecture to teach you something or to explain you something, the professor wants…

This sound ls very much like the experience of Greeks according to some friend.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#127

Post by RandomWorker »

I had a huge complex in my youth , I simply couldn’t read as fast as my peers. Now, I realize that I was going too fast, and by slowing down, taking my time and reading slowly I could absorb more, and understand, and I had this amazing ability to never forget anything I did read (at least for an extended period of maybe 2-3 years). I realized over time that going fast isn’t for me. Better to go slow absorb, digest and ultimately retain more would get me where I needed to be. Never did well in school in terms of grades but ultimately I got better and better doing a masters and actually got sponsored to do my PhD. Many years I read but could not understand, but ultimately it was the joy of reading slow that got me further than the joy of reading and not understanding.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#128

Post by big_paps »

tdrgabi wrote: post #68
croisillon wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how’s the movie called?

Probably "The spy who came in from the cold"

The book and the movie are quite rough, raw and extradry - i don’t mean this in a bad way. The mood reminds me more of eastern productions like tarkowsky (stalker) and the like.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#129

Post by kaba0 »

monero-xmr wrote: post #79
surfingdino wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because making someone think is stupid-shaming and therefore not politically correct.

Eventually everyone is tested. I have received perfect looking resumes and cover letters, then you get the person on a call and they are… hopeless. It’s very sad. Who pushed them so far? How did they get the credentials? Who wrote and edited their materials? Eventually the “rubber meets the road” so to speak, and all of the lies and gold stars and platitudes don’t count for anything.

There are certainly people like that, but there are also exceptionally smart people that just absolutely suck at selling themselves, and you might unknowingly decided the same way in case of both.

It’s very hard to fairly evaluate someone. E.g. I had interviews where I 100% know more than one of my interviewers on the specific topic (not bragging, my knowledge is ain’t a high bar), and that gap in this unusual direction made the process very awkward and strange.

Re: The joy of reading books you don't understand

#130

Post by kaba0 »

lukan wrote: post #88
lmm wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative to considering "asians" or "germans" is probably not understanding each person's cultural background individually but rather putting everyone in a single "world" box. Which is the biggest and most useless one of all. Once you have a good understanding of a typical german you can of course zoom in and get more detail, but if you refuse to learn about germans in general then that's going to make you les…

There is also the alternative of treating humans as humans first, if you don't know much about them, except their looks and their passport nationality. And not assuming one has these and those traits, because they look "asian", but were raised in the US for example. I know I met many people from many backgrounds all over the world and my thinking in boxes default mode, was never really helpful, but often very wrong.…

Well, the differences between western cultures are less pronounced, but I do think that knowing, say, Chinese etiquette when meeting mainland Chinese people is essential to not come across accidentally as rude. There are significant differences there, and natural body language does differ with culture.

Nonetheless, I agree with your general point/sentiment.

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