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The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

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Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#131

Post by Fr0styMatt88 »

shalmanese wrote: post #57
Culonavirus wrote: post #14

There's massive caveat with all of these "and then the story ends because we didn't just ship it :(" stories: sometimes the value of the "app" you're working on is in the technical details that cannot really be "hastened" and you can't "just ship it". Also, and this is something a lot of the managerial class people don't want to hear: Your job as a sw engineer/architect is to resist the "just ship it" pressure from t…

This is the wrong framing of it, shipping is an internal mental battle, not an external one. We are not perfectly rational automatons that always work towards our rational best interests. Shipping is hard so we create mental battles inside ourselves to avoid it and use post-hoc justifications to feel morally ok with that decision. The choice of when to ship isn't nearly as important as the answer to why you aren't sh…

What do you mean by “not shipping on the choice you made to ship”? Do you have an example?

Really fascinating thoughts.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#132

Post by b112 »

achenet wrote: post #127
b112 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair Get nothing?! What a strange way to view a paycheque. "Hi, you're only paying me, but that's not enough to expect a solid work ethic. Instead, I'll make sure my work is just passable. Want more, and now you have to pay me mo…

that scene from Office Space where he talks about "I do just enough not to get fired" may be relevant here. There is something to be said for 'if you're going to be a rational economic actor and you have a salaried job, the optimal strategy is finish your job's tasks as fast as possible and work on a personal project which you control the upside to with all your extra energy'. From a purely economic point of view, sp…

No, Office Space depicted a horrible office environment, most are not such. And minimalist work ethic is a poor one, regardless of hand wavy, trumped up, rationalizations.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#133

Post by rawbert »

When I read this I was like "Oh, that sounds like my family calendar / collaborative productivty app I am working on for months ". And in the last sentence he mentions

> I wanted an app that combines Todos, Habits, Planner, Goals, Pomodoros, Meal tracking, Fasting, Hydration, Packing, Trips, and many many more features.

Surprised Pikachu face.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#134

Post by freilanzer »

portaouflop wrote: post #107
fabioborellini wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair? Salespe…

My experience working in this industry is very different and devs do get recognition and sometimes bonuses (if certain goals are hit). Devs are paid a premium, have generally much more relaxed work schedules than managers or any customer facing role. If you screw over your health working in a toxic environment that’s on you IMO - as tech worker you probably have more opportunities to improve your working conditions t…

I have never known a software developer who got a bonus. Rarely even recognition.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#135

Post by freilanzer »

b112 wrote: post #120
fabioborellini wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair? Salespe…

Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair Get nothing?! What a strange way to view a paycheque. "Hi, you're only paying me, but that's not enough to expect a solid work ethic. Instead, I'll make sure my work is just passable. Want more, and now you have to pay me mo…

You get a salary for doing the expected work, not extraordinary work.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#136

Post by chickenchase-rd »

fabioborellini wrote: post #97
vouwfietsman wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's worth repeating: Unless you have a stake in the company, it is NOT your job to make sure the company is the most profitable it can be. Your job is to create great software This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. The thing is though, that p…

> This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair? Salespe…

Its rare in any field to be compensated for any extraordinary achievement. But these are the people I like to work with.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#137

Post by incanus77 »

vouwfietsman wrote: post #80
Culonavirus wrote: post #14

There's massive caveat with all of these "and then the story ends because we didn't just ship it :(" stories: sometimes the value of the "app" you're working on is in the technical details that cannot really be "hastened" and you can't "just ship it". Also, and this is something a lot of the managerial class people don't want to hear: Your job as a sw engineer/architect is to resist the "just ship it" pressure from t…

> It's worth repeating: Unless you have a stake in the company, it is NOT your job to make sure the company is the most profitable it can be. Your job is to create great software This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. The thing is though, that p…

> It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit.

Common misconception, but a non-profit needs to make a profit, too. It just gets invested back into the business instead of distributed to shareholders, or in fact to any individuals.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#138

Post by jve »

fabioborellini wrote: post #111
portaouflop wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience working in this industry is very different and devs do get recognition and sometimes bonuses (if certain goals are hit). Devs are paid a premium, have generally much more relaxed work schedules than managers or any customer facing role. If you screw over your health working in a toxic environment that’s on you IMO - as tech worker you probably have more opportunities to improve your working conditions t…

Maybe that depends on the job market you're working on. In some countries salaries are more affected by personal performance than in others. My first job as a developer made me work around the clock, day and night, for a below average (nationwide compared) salary. And I got yelled at. Since I didn't have enough work experience, my applications weren't responded to. There were no ways to improve conditions without cha…

> So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair?

Ofcourse it is fair. How can you say you get nothing back? They pay you salary you agreed on when signed contract.

> My first job as a developer made me work around the clock

Bad employer. Maybe doesn't obey the contract on their side and doesn't pay for overtime. Tough one until you level up your experience for sure.

But I'd expect salary to be below average in your first job. You still don't have the necessary experience. And when you do, you CAN find another job.

Just don't have bad attitude towards your job. You will be rewarded one day for being a honest and productive worker.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#139

Post by fabioborellini »

chickenchase-rd wrote: post #136
fabioborellini wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a terrible take, and one I generally see as a signal of lack of seniority in a software dev. It is absolutely everybody's job in the company to make sure it is profitable, unless you work for a non-profit. Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair? Salespe…

Its rare in any field to be compensated for any extraordinary achievement. But these are the people I like to work with.

Surgeons save lives which they may find important and motivating per se.

Grinding meaningless Javascript to deliver more advertisements and conflict to people is neither motivating nor important, or at least it shouldn't be to a responsive person.

Re: The saddest "Just Ship It" story ever (2020)

#140

Post by fabioborellini »

freilanzer wrote: post #135
b112 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers aren't compensated for any extraordinary achievement, though. Unless they own a notable share of the company. So, why should they give everything and get nothing back? How is that fair Get nothing?! What a strange way to view a paycheque. "Hi, you're only paying me, but that's not enough to expect a solid work ethic. Instead, I'll make sure my work is just passable. Want more, and now you have to pay me mo…

You get a salary for doing the expected work, not extraordinary work.

Exactly. Do the expected work well, but don't sacrifice yourself so that other people can use, abuse and eventually desert you.
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