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Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

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Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#131

I'm from a Jewish family that has been unable to pass down its rituals over the past few generations. My great-grandparents were observant on both sides. I have no religion or inherited rituals to speak of. So how does a ritual get successfully passed down for something like 500 generations? What must the observer get from it that motivated them so strongly to pass it along with the necessary vigor? Was it something…

> So how does a ritual get successfully passed down for something like 500 generations? What must the observer get from it that motivated them so strongly to pass it along with the necessary vigor?

I think small, pre-literate societies on the edge of survival rely heavily on "traditional" knowledge, and for very good reasons.

One of my anthropology professors told me a story about a village (I forget his source for this, but it sounded like he had one). They had an old woman, probably in her 80s, toothless, partly blind, and mostly immobile. She only survived because of a significant ongoing effort of the village.

Then the village had a bad year, a famine. And the old woman said, "This happened when I was a child. What you need to do is take the leaves of such-and-such a plant. They're poisonous. But if you beat them with rocks, soak them, and let them age a bit, then they're disgusting but edible." And so the village remained fed. The old woman was contributing to the village's survival, because she was a source of mostly-forgotten knowledge.

Similarly, we know that modern hunter-gatherers might be able to find and identify 47 species of edible mushrooms in their local climate. This knowledge base can easily be the equivalent of a college education focused just on finding food.

Now, inland Australia is famously one of the most inhospitable places in earth. Early European explorers noticed just how difficult it was to survive there. But the locals someone managed just fine. They knew all the tricks.

So my guess is that the kind of society which can remember how to find and prepare 47 kinds of edible mushrooms, or which can survive a famine that occurs every 75 years, or which can survive inland Australia, is a society with significant respect for ancestral knowledge. Learning the rituals may often be a matter of life and death.

The modern world is different because we have books, and science, and high division of labor. If we forget how to do our grandparents' jobs, someone else will still learn. Or the nature of work will change so much that a new generation needs to learn a new way of working.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. The Epic of Gilgamesh (c. 18th century BC) caused quite a lot of controversy when it was translated in 1870 due to its striking similarity to many parts of the Hebrew Bible (which was written MUCH later). Similar controversies erupted over the stories of Osiris (c. 25th century BC). By the 10th century BC, almost all of the story themes that we ascribe to more modern authorship had already been written.

The similarity between the EoG and Genesis flood stories can probably be laid to the fact that the first major human societies were built around flood plains of rivers in regions that have otherwise stable climates. When your society spends centuries in that situation, floods are the single most important natural event that happens to you. If would be shocking if they didn't feature prominently in your stories.

The similarities between the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Genesis flood story are far too extensive to be due to chance.

For example, compare the following passages, describing how Noah / Utnapishtim let out birds to search for dry land, after their boats get grounded on a tall mountain.

Genesis 8:6-12:

After forty days Noah opened a window he had made in the ark and sent out a raven, and it kept flying back and forth until the water had dried up from the earth. Then he sent out a dove to see if the water had receded from the surface of the ground. But the dove could find nowhere to perch because there was water over all the surface of the earth; so it returned to Noah in the ark. He reached out his hand and took the dove and brought it back to himself in the ark. He waited seven more days and again sent out the dove from the ark. When the dove returned to him in the evening, there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf! Then Noah knew that the water had receded from the earth. He waited seven more days and sent the dove out again, but this time it did not return to him.

Epic of Gilgamesh:

> When the seventh day dawned I loosed a dove and let her go. She flew away, but finding no resting-place she returned. Then I loosed a swallow, and she flew away but finding no resting-place she returned. I loosed a raven, she saw that the waters had retreated, she ate, she flew around, she cawed, and she did not come back.

Historically, much of Genesis was likely written during the Babylonian exile. It's not surprising at all that the authors of Genesis borrowed a story that was extremely well known in Babylon.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#133

In India, there is a custom of passing ancient knowledge through poetic verses. Every poetic verses is sung in a specific 'meter'. If there is a discrepancy in recitation then remembering and passing knowledge 'letter by letter' can not succeed. Many of the verses are thousands of years old. I read some describing an ancient extinct river ~7000 years ago, later rediscovered through satellite imagery (don't know the r…

Yeah, in language that suits HN, formal poetic structure amounts to error correction in oral tradition. It dramatically narrows the possibilities of what idea or word or sound or whatever could fit in any particular place in the verse, making it easier to memorize and accurately recite. Clever (and some blundering) poets and changes in language still set up these recitations to evolve away from whatever they original…

Yes poetry is a sort of decent checksum.

However I think parables are an even better checksum, as they can be translated also, but if the meaning is altered the story fails to be coherent. Parables are imo, the best form of information transference across time, imo.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In regards to your 17 year old cat… All mammalian species have something in common. When mammals are young we all love playing. This is true for humans, dogs, elephants, primates, cats and so on. But play ends up disappearing as the mammal gets older. Compare a playful baby elephant to an adult elephant. The baby elephant loves playing. Not just with other elephants but with humans and dogs and so on. But older eleph…

Dogs seem to want to play until they're physically unable to.

There's a theory that the domestication of dogs selected for the retention of juvenile behavioral traits into adulthood (non-suspiciousness, playfulness), vs wolves who do not retain those traits.

It's even thought that the first domesticated dogs pre-domesticated themselves to an extent because the less suspicious wolves were able to use human settlements' trash middens as a food source.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#135

In India, there is a custom of passing ancient knowledge through poetic verses. Every poetic verses is sung in a specific 'meter'. If there is a discrepancy in recitation then remembering and passing knowledge 'letter by letter' can not succeed. Many of the verses are thousands of years old. I read some describing an ancient extinct river ~7000 years ago, later rediscovered through satellite imagery (don't know the r…

An example of this may be the healing spells found in the Merseburg charms, which probably came from a common Indo-European origin somewhere in the Eurasian steppes.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Play is a semi-structured way of learning important skills! Evolution really just has to make it engaging enough for you to learn the skills, not much of a reason for it to persist after that.

> not much of a reason for it to persist after that for working out and keeping fit!... oh, hmmm, I guess that's glaring evidence that working out and keeping fit are not beneficial after all

You don’t need to play to stay fit.

Adult lions don’t play like baby lions yet adult lions are still fit.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#137
post #4

I’m surprised by how tenuous the link is between the cave find and the archival find. Is the bar really that low for claims in archaeological papers or am I missing something? It’s a compelling story, but surely Occam’s razor would conclude that poking sticks into dead animals and fire pits is just what people have done for thousands of years? Where’s the evidence that there was chanting and a healing ceremony? Edit:…

Have to agree here. Also just kind of doesn't pass the common sense test. We all learn the "game of telephone" as a kid and how information can change even just being passed once. In fact I've heard archaeologists in the past specifically say that no oral tradition can survive intact more than 100 years. Usually this statement is in reference to certain creation myths being relatively modern inventions. A claim of 12…

Please do share! Often those are the most interesting ones :)

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do we think peoples of the past would be unable to distinguish between a normal river flooding and a “world ending” flood? What about the ~450 feet of sea level rise in the last 15k years?

They almost certainly could, but also they would also almost certainly be prone to the same kind of embellishments of such stories as they are passed on.

The other quite reasonable hypothesis is that these are tales of the fairly rapid sea level rises that accompanied the end of the last ice age as the breaking of ice dams in the north released massive glacial floods into the North Atlantic and Pacific.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#139
post #89

this ritual likely had a real effect on the person (similar to placebo effect). They probably wouldn't have kept it up for 12k years if they weren't getting some tangible improvement.

Multiple religions are thousands of years old and they can't all be true.

It doesn't sound like anything pure religious, but more of a psychotherapeutic technique, probably coupled with some folk medicine too.

Re: Aboriginal ritual passed down over 12,000 years, cave find shows

#140
post #108

Kinda sad that the ritual was a way to curse somebody. 12,000 years of hurting each other. Side Node: computer programing is kinda cool. It is a set of incantations which actually does work. EDIT: Hello, all you down-voters and people who say I should read the article before commenting :-) I to, don't like it when people just start commenting without reading the article. I also don't like it when people take what a p…

It says nothing about cursing. Please read article first before commenting.
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