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Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

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61–70 of 133 posts

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#61
post #7

> [re a slide-to-unlock patent] Apple’s .. argument is that “a tap is a zero-length swipe.” That’s silly. It’s like saying that a point is a zero-length line. But a point is a zero-length line.

I'm beyond disappointed that the article is about the most important ruling regarding patent law in recent memory, and the overwhelming majority of this thread is arguing about the geometry cited in the judge's order. Rational people understood what he meant, even if maybe it's not 100% mathematically sound. This pedantry really frustrates me, and it extends beyond Hacker News. It's pervasive in conversations I've be…

[deleted]

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#63
post #40

What a wonderful surprise. I'd forgotten about the judicial branch, and now they appear like the cavalry to sort out this mess. Wouldn't it be great if they went after the patent trolls next?

fwiw, Mark Cuban seemingly forgot about the judicial branch also when examining problem recently (http://blogmaverick.com/2012/03/13/i-hope-yahoo-crushes-face...) - "Rather than originating in Congress, its going to take a consumer uprising to cause change".

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#64
post #40

What a wonderful surprise. I'd forgotten about the judicial branch, and now they appear like the cavalry to sort out this mess. Wouldn't it be great if they went after the patent trolls next?

It's unfortunate that it's easy to forget the judicial branch (I do too). It's tough to perceive their actions as governing in the same way that Congress governs, but it is in fact the case. It's also great when it's used effectively.

But they don't govern the same way Congress does, which is part of the beauty of the system.

They certainly play a role in governing, but where Contress is active (in theory), the Courts are reactive, waiting for a case to be brought to them. Where Congress is reaching for power and often places limitations on citizens, the Courts (in principle) ensure Congress does not claim too much power and limits Congress.

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#66
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and the overwhelming majority of this thread is arguing about the geometry cited in the judge's order. Rational people understood what he meant, even if maybe it's not 100% mathematically sound. > This pedantry really frustrates me People are well aware that they are nit picking, but they enjoy the resulting discussion! Intellectually inclined people enjoy discussing minutia with other like minded people. They are…

Your entire comment would be wise were it not for, both in the case of my anecdote and this original comment, the observation that someone is incorrect. It's one thing to enjoy intellectual pursuits, it's another to put down others, belittle them, or critique their opinions because of a perceived mistake they made (such as the geometry). It's doubly worse if the mistake has no bearing whatsoever on the actual opinion…

> the observation that someone is incorrect ... to put down others, belittle them, or critique their opinions

I really don't think they are doing that. They understand that for the normal purpose he's right, they are just talking about mathematics, or general cases. At this point it's removed from the original, they are no longer talking about him (the Judge) they are talking about the concept in general.

> I like to think of myself as intellectually inclined

and

> and there are instances where it's fun to think about

There you go. There is no rule that says you have to enjoy talking about the same things as someone else. Each person likes their own stuff.

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#67
Ah, Judge Posner. Years ago I was the Creative Commoner for a while, Lawrence Lessig sent me a congratulatory email in which he said that I was "another Judge Posner" -- it took me a good bit of research to get the humor.

Now I smile whenever I see Judge Posner's name.

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#68
Judge Posner is indeed a brilliant and highly-respected jurist and his views on our problematic patent system will undoubtedly resonate and help the cause of reform. In his courtroom role as such, though, he can have only limited impact on the broader patent debate.

The judge entered a tentative ruling saying that he was inclined to dismiss the entire case on the merits with prejudice (meaning, to kill all the claims in the case definitively so they could not be brought again by either party) on grounds that (a) neither party could prove actual damages on their claims, and (b) no good ground existed for the grant of an injunction.

These conclusions are well supported on technical grounds by existing law. A damage case can be tossed, once and for all, if a party is conclusively shown not to be able to prove damages, as happened here. And a judge can decline to impose an injunction where the costs of doing so would be far out of proportion to the benefit it gives to the harmed party, where the wrongdoing party is not gaining great benefit from the wrong committed, and where the public would be more damaged than helped by such a remedy.

What this really amounts to is a victory for common sense. Where patents involve essentially trivial rights (as often is the case with software patents especially), judges do not like to be used as tools to be manipulated in a broader commercial fight between litigants. In essence, this judge, looking at these facts, said "OK, kids, time to stop squabbling in the sandbox and go home." The lesson: pick your fights carefully and don't push claims that are essentially trivial.

Judges, good as they are, can only do so much in a system that is defined by constitutional authorization, congressional implementation, and a specialized court set up by Congress that has become cozy with the patent bar. That said, Judge Posner can hardly be accused of being a judge who doesn't respect property rights or IP rights generally and his voice will carry far more impact than most. It will be necessary to have respected voices in the legal community say, "enough is enough" many times over before Congress will listen. This act may not be enough but it is a great push in the right direction.

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#69
post #54
post #7

> [re a slide-to-unlock patent] Apple’s .. argument is that “a tap is a zero-length swipe.” That’s silly. It’s like saying that a point is a zero-length line. But a point is a zero-length line.

Yes, and a tap is, technically, a zero length swipe. But there is nevertheless a distinction between taps and swipes just as there is between points and lines. Apple's API distinguishes between the two gestures, even if Apple's lawyers don't. Claiming that tap-to-unlock violates a swipe-to-unlock patent is silly. The whole point of swipe-to-unlock is that a tap doesn't unlock the phone.

This is what I thought the judge was getting at - yes, you can define a point as a zero-length line in theoretical space, but when you apply it to something like finger movements in the case in front of him, it's a big pile of horseshit. Describing a point as a zero-length line is a mathematical trick used to help understand a concept; it's not a real-world application of mathematics.

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#70

I'm glad Posner and a few other justices seem to have an interest in discrediting frivolous patent cases but can they do anything other than point a dirty finger at corporations for abusing the patent system and dismiss their cases with prejudice? Posner can't shift around his appointments indefinitely. It's obvious that most HNers feel the patent system won't change any time soon or they wouldn't be filling this thr…

Patent trolls need to go to court in certain states to be effective. States like Texas are a big part of the patent troll problem. The courts there welcome the insanity with open arms.

If we could clone Posner and put him in every state, this type of ridiculous patent litigation from IT companies would not be such a viable course of action.

Maybe it's not a question of what one justice can do, but a question of people taking a greater interest in their local and federal court systems. Are the courts in your state giving the go-ahead to frivolous patent proceedings from IT companies? Do you think that is a good thing? Is the time and expense for the courts to hear these cases warranted? Take an interest, as you did with SOPA. Imagine if there was a calling campaign to state bar associations instead of state politicians. Believe me, it would get noticed. Most people just do not care about this stuff enough to take an interest.

That said, there are a lot of people who support this patent trolling nonsense. It doesn't fly in Chicago, but it's par for the course in Washington and California. Good luck rallying the troops in those places. Many of them are part of patent trolling machine. It's what their employers and clients do.

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