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Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

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Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#51

Post by dctoedt »

_delirium wrote: post #48
neilk wrote: post #43

What does it mean that Posner was assigned to a lower court? Should we assume that he requested a chance to rule on this matter? Or is the entire judicial branch disgusted with the patent system too, and they asked for a pinch-hitter?

The chief judge of a circuit can assign a circuit judge to hear a district-court case, if they deem it to be in the public interest. (I don't know anything about how often this is used, or what the reasons typically are, though.)

In the federal court system, it's not unusual for circuit (appellate) judges to volunteer to be assigned to preside at trials in the district courts. This is especially true if the appellate judge didn't previously serve as a trial judge. That was the case with Richard Posner, who was a highly-distinguished law professor before being appointed to the appellate bench.

The reverse is also true: It's not uncommon for district (trial) judges to volunteer for temporary duty as a circuit (appellate) judge. They do this to get a first-hand perspective of how the appeals court will evaluate their work.

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#52

Post by dctoedt »

pg wrote: post #40

What a wonderful surprise. I'd forgotten about the judicial branch, and now they appear like the cavalry to sort out this mess. Wouldn't it be great if they went after the patent trolls next?

I wouldn't read too much into this. Judge Posner took standard principles of law governing damage awards and injunctions and applied them to a very specific set of circumstances. The opinion itself [1] is worth reading.

[1] http://www.scribd.com/doc/96427053/Posner-Order

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#53

Post by foz »

j-b wrote: post #31
arjunnarayan wrote: post #5

This opinion is both extraordinary and extremely significant. Richard Posner is probably the most prolific legal intellectual not on the supreme court. He co-writes, along with Gary Becker (Nobel Prize winner in Economics) this excellent blog http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/ Posner is the author of the 4th most cited Law Review article in the field of intellectual property law[1]. Most telling of all is this statis…

An excellent quote from Posner: "The institutional structure of the United States is under stress. We might be in dangerous economic straits if the dollar were not the principal international reserve currency and the eurozone in deep fiscal trouble. We have a huge public debt, dangerously neglected infrastructure, a greatly overextended system of criminal punishment, a seeming inability to come to grips with grave en…

That post is an excellent read. He gets right to the heart of the biggest challenge facing the US right now. However there are no solutions put forward, a job which is unfortunately left up to the politicians.

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#54

Post by cwp »

mikek wrote: post #7

> [re a slide-to-unlock patent] Apple’s .. argument is that “a tap is a zero-length swipe.” That’s silly. It’s like saying that a point is a zero-length line. But a point is a zero-length line.

Yes, and a tap is, technically, a zero length swipe. But there is nevertheless a distinction between taps and swipes just as there is between points and lines. Apple's API distinguishes between the two gestures, even if Apple's lawyers don't. Claiming that tap-to-unlock violates a swipe-to-unlock patent is silly. The whole point of swipe-to-unlock is that a tap doesn't unlock the phone.

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#55

Post by ars »

jsprinkles wrote: post #49
mikek wrote: post #7

> [re a slide-to-unlock patent] Apple’s .. argument is that “a tap is a zero-length swipe.” That’s silly. It’s like saying that a point is a zero-length line. But a point is a zero-length line.

I'm beyond disappointed that the article is about the most important ruling regarding patent law in recent memory, and the overwhelming majority of this thread is arguing about the geometry cited in the judge's order. Rational people understood what he meant, even if maybe it's not 100% mathematically sound. This pedantry really frustrates me, and it extends beyond Hacker News. It's pervasive in conversations I've be…

> and the overwhelming majority of this thread is arguing about the geometry cited in the judge's order. Rational people understood what he meant, even if maybe it's not 100% mathematically sound.

> This pedantry really frustrates me

People are well aware that they are nit picking, but they enjoy the resulting discussion! Intellectually inclined people enjoy discussing minutia with other like minded people. They are perfectly aware that it makes no difference, and they don't care - it's just something interesting to talk about. It's no longer nit picking about the original (i.e. the practical use is settled), at that point it becomes a discussion for its own sake.

Do you never learn or do anything just for the sake of doing it, rather than in order to accomplish something useful?

> and some jackass in the group decided to go to the mat with me on the fact that I had cited the wrong Star Trek film

He was showing off. If you don't wish to participate in the Star Trek memorization culture just ignore him - his comment was geared to other members of his group who do like doing that. Or simply acknowledge that he was right and move on. Clearly you don't care about that topic, so that acknowledgement shouldn't cost you too much ego.

That's also the point of threads: You can ignore an entire thread that is off topic - but it also gives people who found something interesting a place to talk about it without disturbing the rest of the conversation.

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#56

Post by neilk »

dctoedt wrote: post #51
_delirium wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chief judge of a circuit can assign a circuit judge to hear a district-court case, if they deem it to be in the public interest. (I don't know anything about how often this is used, or what the reasons typically are, though.)

In the federal court system, it's not unusual for circuit (appellate) judges to volunteer to be assigned to preside at trials in the district courts. This is especially true if the appellate judge didn't previously serve as a trial judge. That was the case with Richard Posner, who was a highly-distinguished law professor before being appointed to the appellate bench. The reverse is also true: It's not uncommon for di…

So from what you are saying it sounds like Posner volunteered for this. He wasn't drafted by someone else.

Personally I think that's fantastic.

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#57

Post by jsprinkles »

ars wrote: post #55
jsprinkles wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm beyond disappointed that the article is about the most important ruling regarding patent law in recent memory, and the overwhelming majority of this thread is arguing about the geometry cited in the judge's order. Rational people understood what he meant, even if maybe it's not 100% mathematically sound. This pedantry really frustrates me, and it extends beyond Hacker News. It's pervasive in conversations I've be…

> and the overwhelming majority of this thread is arguing about the geometry cited in the judge's order. Rational people understood what he meant, even if maybe it's not 100% mathematically sound. > This pedantry really frustrates me People are well aware that they are nit picking, but they enjoy the resulting discussion! Intellectually inclined people enjoy discussing minutia with other like minded people. They are…

Your entire comment would be wise were it not for, both in the case of my anecdote and this original comment, the observation that someone is incorrect. It's one thing to enjoy intellectual pursuits, it's another to put down others, belittle them, or critique their opinions because of a perceived mistake they made (such as the geometry). It's doubly worse if the mistake has no bearing whatsoever on the actual opinion, like the finding and the opinion I was sharing in my anecdote.

Also, I like to think of myself as intellectually inclined, and I simply hate discussing and arguing minutia like this. It just doesn't matter, and my time is limited. I don't want to argue with you on what Dickens meant by a certain character's dialogue in David Copperfield, I'd just like to enjoy it as a great novel. (That is fairly specific, and there are instances where it's fun to think about, but in general it isn't.)

> Clearly you don't care about that topic, so that acknowledgement shouldn't cost you too much ego.

Not about my ego, oddly (most everything else is, but this isn't). It undermines the opinion or discussion at hand from everybody else's perspective, however subtly. It's an annoying opportunity to show off, as you say, like those people that get up at conferences and ask a question that shows off at the expense of everyone listening. Both are distractions from the topic and are a detriment to the conversation, regardless of their original purpose.

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#58

Post by SilasX »

meson2k wrote: post #26
mikek wrote: post #7

> [re a slide-to-unlock patent] Apple’s .. argument is that “a tap is a zero-length swipe.” That’s silly. It’s like saying that a point is a zero-length line. But a point is a zero-length line.

A zero-area polygon. A zero-volume hedron. etc. etc.

Such degeneracy!

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#59

Post by christofd »

j-b wrote: post #31
arjunnarayan wrote: post #5

This opinion is both extraordinary and extremely significant. Richard Posner is probably the most prolific legal intellectual not on the supreme court. He co-writes, along with Gary Becker (Nobel Prize winner in Economics) this excellent blog http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/ Posner is the author of the 4th most cited Law Review article in the field of intellectual property law[1]. Most telling of all is this statis…

An excellent quote from Posner: "The institutional structure of the United States is under stress. We might be in dangerous economic straits if the dollar were not the principal international reserve currency and the eurozone in deep fiscal trouble. We have a huge public debt, dangerously neglected infrastructure, a greatly overextended system of criminal punishment, a seeming inability to come to grips with grave en…

well, this was 30 years in the making...

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#60

Post by MartinCron »

AJ007 wrote: post #47
pg wrote: post #40

What a wonderful surprise. I'd forgotten about the judicial branch, and now they appear like the cavalry to sort out this mess. Wouldn't it be great if they went after the patent trolls next?

If it was not for the judicial branch, the internet would, as we know it today, would not exist. Remember such detestations as the Child Online Protection Act? Which, after being struck down, and the Supreme Court agreeing with the ruling, a John Ashcroft led Department of Justice continued to use tax payer money to push back through the courts? I suspect that the differences between functional and dysfunctional gove…

If it was not for the judicial branch, the internet would, as we know it today, would not exist.

But for the judiciary, many of the liberties we take for granted wouldn't exist. It's easy to sneer at "activist judges" when you don't like how the rule, but never forget how brilliant the multi-branch system of government is.

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