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What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

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Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#31

Post by fgHabxn »

elric wrote: post #28
codazoda wrote: post #14

Off topic, but I notice FreeDOS still uses email mailing lists. What email mailing list software / platforms are people using these days? Can you get mail delivered if you install an OSS mailing list and stand up your own server (vps or whatever)?

> FreeDOS still uses email mailing lists I'm a bit surprised by this statement. Does this imply that there are now a bunch of FOSS projects that don't use mailing lists? Mailing lists are by far my preferred method of communicating with projects. Please don't tell me people are moving to github issues or some such?

Yes, CPython moved to Discourse and then censored the mailing lists, which are now defunct. Discourse offers superior tracking and censoring abilities, so only those who have the right opinions and work for the right corporations can be heard.

The fact that there is little real progress can be suppressed.

Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#32

Post by shiroiushi »

Qwertious wrote: post #30
shiroiushi wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Besides, many social conventions "exclude" people. All social conventions exclude people. There's no way to be inclusive of everyone. For an extreme example, if you allow Nazi ideology in a place, for instance, that excludes people who won't put up with that or who the Nazis chase away. But if you disallow Nazi ideology, then you're excluding Nazis. Of course, this will devolve into Popper's paradox of tolerance, bu…

A less controversial example than nazis (sigh) might be requiring basic hygiene. If you don't exclude people who don't exhibit basic hygiene (e.g. smelling like literal shit), then a whole lot of casuals will be driven away. If you do exclude them, you exclude them. Now, you might say, "what exactly is the difference between nazis and some people who smell like actual shit? you just swapped some words out", but, you…

>A less controversial example than nazis (sigh) might be requiring basic hygiene.

I'm not sure why Nazis are "controversial". They're generally the universal boogeymen. Although these days, it does seem like some Nazi ideology has become more popular in some places in recent years...

When we test software, one thing we normally do is look for edge cases, and test those. If the program works with the edge cases, then it can handle any cases. So picking Nazis for my extreme example is just my use of an edge case to illustrate my point about the limits of inclusivity, and also points to Popper's paradox of tolerance, since the Nazis were the poster-child for intolerance.

But yeah, for a workplace setting, for instance, excluding people lacking basic hygiene (smelling like shit) is a good example. I've actually had problems like this at work, unfortunately (with coworkers smelling like this, not me!).

Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#33

Post by rob74 »

franga2000 wrote: post #29
transpute wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we don't really need it - it serves no practical purpose FreeDOS is used by PC OEMs for tech support, e.g. https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/ish_9586495-9586656-16 You can create a DOS-bootable USB flash drive by downloading and saving a FreeDOS operating system image. The bootable USB flash drive can then be used for testing and troubleshooting any component on your PC. FreeDOS helps sell PC hardware without t…

The "helping sell hardware without Windows" part is actually more like "helps PC vendors exploit a legal loophole and Microsoft keep its market share". They could just as easily install Ubuntu/whatever on computers that don't ship with Windows, but that might make some people stick with it and immediately install Windows on it. But if they put a useless OS like FreeDOS on there, they can check the "has OS" box, as we…

I don't think this practice is in Microsoft's interest. People who buy a PC with FreeDOS usually install a pirated copy of Windows (or Linux, but not sure what the exact proportion of those is), which definitely doesn't contribute to M$'s bottom line...

Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#34

Post by rcxdude »

rob74 wrote: post #33
franga2000 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "helping sell hardware without Windows" part is actually more like "helps PC vendors exploit a legal loophole and Microsoft keep its market share". They could just as easily install Ubuntu/whatever on computers that don't ship with Windows, but that might make some people stick with it and immediately install Windows on it. But if they put a useless OS like FreeDOS on there, they can check the "has OS" box, as we…

I don't think this practice is in Microsoft's interest. People who buy a PC with FreeDOS usually install a pirated copy of Windows (or Linux, but not sure what the exact proportion of those is), which definitely doesn't contribute to M$'s bottom line...

Microsoft would far prefer you installing a pirated copy of windows to installing Linux.

Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#35

Post by kryptiskt »

elric wrote: post #28
codazoda wrote: post #14

Off topic, but I notice FreeDOS still uses email mailing lists. What email mailing list software / platforms are people using these days? Can you get mail delivered if you install an OSS mailing list and stand up your own server (vps or whatever)?

> FreeDOS still uses email mailing lists I'm a bit surprised by this statement. Does this imply that there are now a bunch of FOSS projects that don't use mailing lists? Mailing lists are by far my preferred method of communicating with projects. Please don't tell me people are moving to github issues or some such?

One prominent example, Rust started off with mailing lists but shut them off a decade ago or so. Many other projects I participate in or follow have moved their communication to other means, Discord and Discourse are popular, sometimes the mailing lists remain but are silent, sometimes they are removed.

Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#36

Post by justin66 »

franga2000 wrote: post #29
transpute wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we don't really need it - it serves no practical purpose FreeDOS is used by PC OEMs for tech support, e.g. https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/ish_9586495-9586656-16 You can create a DOS-bootable USB flash drive by downloading and saving a FreeDOS operating system image. The bootable USB flash drive can then be used for testing and troubleshooting any component on your PC. FreeDOS helps sell PC hardware without t…

The "helping sell hardware without Windows" part is actually more like "helps PC vendors exploit a legal loophole and Microsoft keep its market share". They could just as easily install Ubuntu/whatever on computers that don't ship with Windows, but that might make some people stick with it and immediately install Windows on it. But if they put a useless OS like FreeDOS on there, they can check the "has OS" box, as we…

“If it weren’t for _, it would surely be the year of Linux on the desktop” is not a new cry, but I don’t think I’ve seen FreeDOS used as the culprit before. Funny stuff.

Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#37

Post by okasaki »

rob74 wrote: post #33
franga2000 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "helping sell hardware without Windows" part is actually more like "helps PC vendors exploit a legal loophole and Microsoft keep its market share". They could just as easily install Ubuntu/whatever on computers that don't ship with Windows, but that might make some people stick with it and immediately install Windows on it. But if they put a useless OS like FreeDOS on there, they can check the "has OS" box, as we…

I don't think this practice is in Microsoft's interest. People who buy a PC with FreeDOS usually install a pirated copy of Windows (or Linux, but not sure what the exact proportion of those is), which definitely doesn't contribute to M$'s bottom line...

They monetize your data.

Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#38

Post by poulpy123 »

shiroiushi wrote: post #32
Qwertious wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A less controversial example than nazis (sigh) might be requiring basic hygiene. If you don't exclude people who don't exhibit basic hygiene (e.g. smelling like literal shit), then a whole lot of casuals will be driven away. If you do exclude them, you exclude them. Now, you might say, "what exactly is the difference between nazis and some people who smell like actual shit? you just swapped some words out", but, you…

>A less controversial example than nazis (sigh) might be requiring basic hygiene. I'm not sure why Nazis are "controversial". They're generally the universal boogeymen. Although these days, it does seem like some Nazi ideology has become more popular in some places in recent years... When we test software, one thing we normally do is look for edge cases, and test those. If the program works with the edge cases, then…

> They're generally the universal boogeymen.

That's the problem actually. It's so strong that it makes it more difficult for the principle to be applied for what is less strong. Also in some place it has also been overused to the point it's not effective because you don't know if the people accused are really nazi or not (in my country even left politicians may be called literal fascists by others at the left)

Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#39

Post by account42 »

rob74 wrote: post #33
franga2000 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "helping sell hardware without Windows" part is actually more like "helps PC vendors exploit a legal loophole and Microsoft keep its market share". They could just as easily install Ubuntu/whatever on computers that don't ship with Windows, but that might make some people stick with it and immediately install Windows on it. But if they put a useless OS like FreeDOS on there, they can check the "has OS" box, as we…

I don't think this practice is in Microsoft's interest. People who buy a PC with FreeDOS usually install a pirated copy of Windows (or Linux, but not sure what the exact proportion of those is), which definitely doesn't contribute to M$'s bottom line...

On the contrary, being the primary desktop OS that everyone uses and thus everyone supports is Windows' biggest advantage. Anything that helps thingns stays that way contributes to Microsofts bottom line.

Re: What I've learned about open source community over 30 years

#40

Post by account42 »

These are great things to do if you want to buld a community around a project (which does help keep it going). But it's also OK to just build what you want and publish that and then maybe accept contributions under whatever terms you feel like. Community management really is an entirely different skillset from software developement and I wouldn't want anyone to be discouraged from open sourcing their software if they are not a "people person" and don't want to deal with all that. Just sharing your work already makes the world better and you are NOT required to do anything more than that.
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