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Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

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Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#21

Post by [deleted] »

johnpmayer wrote: post #13
mikek wrote: post #7

> [re a slide-to-unlock patent] Apple’s .. argument is that “a tap is a zero-length swipe.” That’s silly. It’s like saying that a point is a zero-length line. But a point is a zero-length line.

Depends on your definition. In my interpretation, to be considered a line in any number of dimensions, it must be specified by no fewer than two points. This puts a lower bound on the amount of information to specify "lines", a bound strictly greater than specifying a "point" in a space of similar dimensions. Otherwise, is point also a polygon consisting entirely of zero-length sides? But anyway, I think it was only…

[deleted]

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#22

Post by tankenmate »

famousactress wrote: post #10
mikek wrote: post #7

> [re a slide-to-unlock patent] Apple’s .. argument is that “a tap is a zero-length swipe.” That’s silly. It’s like saying that a point is a zero-length line. But a point is a zero-length line.

Is it? Maybe a zero length line segment. In geometry terms, lines are infinite, aren't they?

No. Yes.

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#23

Post by twelvechairs »

mikek wrote: post #7

> [re a slide-to-unlock patent] Apple’s .. argument is that “a tap is a zero-length swipe.” That’s silly. It’s like saying that a point is a zero-length line. But a point is a zero-length line.

Yeah. This struck me as well. I think what you say is right, but probably the 'silly' part comes from the context of the legal argument.

For instance, You could also say a point is also something with 132 dimensions of data - all but one or two of which are set to 0. Does that mean if we patent ways of working with 132-dimensional data that our patents should apply to anything with fewer dimensions? Of course that would be silly....

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#25

Post by Aethaeryn »

colanderman wrote: post #20
Aethaeryn wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A zero-length line segment is a point. The Wikipedia definition of a line segment says that it is bound by two endpoints.[1] It provides a reference to Planet Math that goes into specifics.[2] In this page, it is made clear that the two endpoints cannot be equal. Planet Math provides an equation for a closed[3] line segment: L = {a + tb | t in [0, 1]} This means that a line segment can be expressed as all of the po…

Ah good I was looking for the restriction b ≠ 0 but couldn't find in on the Wikipedia page. Forgot to check out PlanetMath, thanks.

I'm actually surprised by the lack of rigor in many of the sources I checked. It's obvious that b != 0 is necessary because otherwise you can't get results like line segments having an infinite number of points, and hence equal to the amount of points in a line.[1] The thing is, a lot of common references seem to leave out that the endpoints can't be equal.[2] It's so obvious that it's just implied, but it's dangerous to treat mathematics like that!

-----

[1] http://mathworld.wolfram.com/LineSegment.html

[2] Just saying 'two distinct endpoints' instead of 'two endpoints' would work, so it's literally just one word that makes a big difference!

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#26

Post by meson2k »

mikek wrote: post #7

> [re a slide-to-unlock patent] Apple’s .. argument is that “a tap is a zero-length swipe.” That’s silly. It’s like saying that a point is a zero-length line. But a point is a zero-length line.

A zero-area polygon. A zero-volume hedron. etc. etc.

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#27

Post by bretpiatt »

gdubs wrote: post #24

I notice that NeXT is listed as a co-plaintif - does anyone know why? Weren't they completely acquired by Apple?

Not a lawyer and speculating so take it for what its worth... when you acquire an entity you don't always remove all of the assets from it and shut it down. It turns into a wholly owned subsidiary. The patents are likely still assets of the NeXT subsidiary.

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#28

Post by hristov »

mikek wrote: post #7

> [re a slide-to-unlock patent] Apple’s .. argument is that “a tap is a zero-length swipe.” That’s silly. It’s like saying that a point is a zero-length line. But a point is a zero-length line.

Not exactly. Even if you disregard the definition arguments discussed below, and allow the definition of "line segment" to include "point" I would not say that a point is a zero length line segment.

It seems to me that the "lenght" of a point, if such a concept is to be allowed, is infinitely small but not zero. Thus, a point has length of lim(x->0) x.

To me, a zero length line segment would be nothingness.

But putting the math aside, in the context of patent law, it is important to follow the commonly accepted definitions. A person should not be able to change the meaning of his claims by suggesting new definitions. And it seems obvious that, as others have pointed out, the accepted definition of a line segment is something with finite length, and the accepted definition of a swipe is something that (obviously) results from swiping, i.e. some movement of the finger.

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#29

Post by hxa7241 »

arjunnarayan wrote: post #5

This opinion is both extraordinary and extremely significant. Richard Posner is probably the most prolific legal intellectual not on the supreme court. He co-writes, along with Gary Becker (Nobel Prize winner in Economics) this excellent blog http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/ Posner is the author of the 4th most cited Law Review article in the field of intellectual property law[1]. Most telling of all is this statis…

Everyone should read the second paragraph of that article, so here is a link: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/IPCoop/89land1.html -- it is one of the baselines for intelligent consideration of the subject, pro or anti.

(relevant jargon ref: "public good" -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_good)

Re: Famous judge spikes Apple-Google case, calls patent system “dysfunctional”

#30

Post by strictfp »

mikek wrote: post #7

> [re a slide-to-unlock patent] Apple’s .. argument is that “a tap is a zero-length swipe.” That’s silly. It’s like saying that a point is a zero-length line. But a point is a zero-length line.

That is the point he is trying to make. A point _can be seen_ as a zero-length line, but this is really on the boundary of the definition of a line. Likewise a zero-length swipe is a tap, but that is really stretching the definition of a swipe. Basing a court case on such a stretched definition is what he is opposing.
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