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Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

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Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#51
post #8

I'm dismayed by this ruling but I'm curious: can someone defend it? I'm able to understand the counter-perspectives to my own on many hot-button issues (2nd amendment, abortion bans) but this one seems very nakedly bad. But maybe I'm just not seeing the counterpoint?

A common thing in empires is that the behavior that was perpetrated in the colonies eventually comes back to the mainland to be applied to the, previously, sheltered population.

Out of the US, US presidents have always had effective immunity from any consequences, committing war crimes, disrespecting local laws and eschewing even the UN. Kinda like an expected consequence of everything else.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#52
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If presidents could be prosecuted for their official acts then the next time the other party takes over they will just immediately find various crimes their predecessor “committed” (there are probably 10s of 1000s of them).

But isn't that the status quo? Why didn't that happen when Obama left office? It's not like the Republicans were lacking a desire for retribution against him. "there are probably 10s of 1000s of them" also feels a little lacking to me. Do we have concrete examples?

i think it was just a "gentleman's agreement" to not prosecute former presidents or rivals. I remember in the 2016 debates when Trump said he would appoint a special prosecutor to look into Hillary her eyes got real big about how ignorant Trump was to the way things are and have been. That's one of the downsides to a political outsider a lot of formally unasked questions start needing answers.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#53
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If presidents could be prosecuted for their official acts then the next time the other party takes over they will just immediately find various crimes their predecessor “committed” (there are probably 10s of 1000s of them).

But isn't that the status quo? Why didn't that happen when Obama left office? It's not like the Republicans were lacking a desire for retribution against him. "there are probably 10s of 1000s of them" also feels a little lacking to me. Do we have concrete examples?

I would imagine that Obama is quite happy with his presidential immunity for ordering the extrajudicial killing of an American citizen via drone strike[1].

[1] https://mwi.westpoint.edu/ten-years-after-the-al-awlaki-kill...

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#54
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If presidents could be prosecuted for their official acts then the next time the other party takes over they will just immediately find various crimes their predecessor “committed” (there are probably 10s of 1000s of them).

If presidents break the law, they should be prosecuted. I don't care who you are or what party you're with.

First, I agree . Second, the first step in that is the impeachment process.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#55

I’m not an expert in this area by any means but it feels like there should be a “motive” angle to this rather just than blanket immunity. The same actions committed by two different presidents could vary hugely in their motive - one might be legitimately concerned about voter fraud and the other trying to interfere maliciously with election results. Admittedly the bar would be high to prove malicious intent (eg. acti…

The decision actually explicitly bars courts from using motive:

> In dividing official from unofficial conduct, courts may not inquire into the President’s motives

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#56
post #14
post #7

Would this ruling make Nixon’s actions in Watergate legal too?

It would make it illegal to use the tapes as evidence against him. So it doesn't matter if it makes it legal or not, because it makes the illegality impossible to prove in a court of law by denying evidence to the prosecution.

Could you explain this a bit further?

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#57

Sotomayor's dissent ends: > Never in the history of our Republic has a President had reason to believe that he would be immune from criminal prosecution if he used the trappings of his office to violate the criminal law. Moving forward, however, all former Presidents will be cloaked in such immunity. If the occupant of that office misuses official power for personal gain, the criminal law that the rest of us must abi…

I don't understand the personal gain part. How is that official capacity?

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#58
post #8

I'm dismayed by this ruling but I'm curious: can someone defend it? I'm able to understand the counter-perspectives to my own on many hot-button issues (2nd amendment, abortion bans) but this one seems very nakedly bad. But maybe I'm just not seeing the counterpoint?

Sure. You want a President to be able to carry out the roles of the office without concern that his or her political opponents will use the courts to try to punish those actions. There are reasonable disagreements on where Presidential authority begins or ends on many topics, and you want the limits to be either through separation of powers (e.g., the Judicial Branch can bring an end to actions, the Legislative can i…

The court never defined what are or aren’t official acts and it should be straight forward for the president to say that spying on his enemies, that are also the enemies of the state/government, is an official act, as they are protecting the constitution from those that would do it harm.

Presidents are effectively kings now, won’t be long until one declares himself one for good.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#59

Sotomayor's dissent ends: > Never in the history of our Republic has a President had reason to believe that he would be immune from criminal prosecution if he used the trappings of his office to violate the criminal law. Moving forward, however, all former Presidents will be cloaked in such immunity. If the occupant of that office misuses official power for personal gain, the criminal law that the rest of us must abi…

[deleted]

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#60
post #8

I'm dismayed by this ruling but I'm curious: can someone defend it? I'm able to understand the counter-perspectives to my own on many hot-button issues (2nd amendment, abortion bans) but this one seems very nakedly bad. But maybe I'm just not seeing the counterpoint?

Sure.

The Founders envisioned an extremely weak criminal justice system, especially for "their class of people." Defendants were given extremely strong protections, and convictions were the exception, not the rule.

The Founders were more concerned about facing a duel than a criminal conviction.

So they added other mechanisms for presidential accountability: impeachment, elections, and the weakness of the office.

These other mechanisms have become weaker and weaker, while the criminal justice system has become stronger and stronger.

Impeachment's happen, but not Senate convictions. The political parties have created a duopoloy on power which allow them to run weak candidates. Congress is less and less willing to hold presidents of their own party accountable. Dueling is prohibited not just criminally, but constitionally in most states.

At the same time the criminal justice system is becoming more and more powerful. Convictions are in the high 90%. Juries are very weak and at the mercy of powerful prosecutors.

The Constitution simply didn't envision a situation where the criminal justice system is more likley to hold someone accountable than an election or Congress.

Impeachment, elections, and duels no longer deter bad conduct. Convictions do.

So we have an edge case: a system that can only hold an ex-President accountable via a criminal charge.

Edge cases are weird. They create "sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't" situations. And that's where we are now.

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