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Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

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Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#21
post #8

I'm dismayed by this ruling but I'm curious: can someone defend it? I'm able to understand the counter-perspectives to my own on many hot-button issues (2nd amendment, abortion bans) but this one seems very nakedly bad. But maybe I'm just not seeing the counterpoint?

Sure. You want a President to be able to carry out the roles of the office without concern that his or her political opponents will use the courts to try to punish those actions. There are reasonable disagreements on where Presidential authority begins or ends on many topics, and you want the limits to be either through separation of powers (e.g., the Judicial Branch can bring an end to actions, the Legislative can impeach and remove the President) or through the ballot box.

This does not mean, including from the majority opinion, that anything the President does is immune from challenges. If the President directs a cover-up for his campaign (Nixon) or directs a Governor to find enough ballots for him to win or directs "alternate electors" via fraud (Trump), this is not an official action. Trump's lawyers admitted as much in the oral arguments.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#22
post #8

I'm dismayed by this ruling but I'm curious: can someone defend it? I'm able to understand the counter-perspectives to my own on many hot-button issues (2nd amendment, abortion bans) but this one seems very nakedly bad. But maybe I'm just not seeing the counterpoint?

If presidents could be prosecuted for their official acts then the next time the other party takes over they will just immediately find various crimes their predecessor “committed” (there are probably 10s of 1000s of them).

But isn't that the status quo? Why didn't that happen when Obama left office? It's not like the Republicans were lacking a desire for retribution against him.

"there are probably 10s of 1000s of them" also feels a little lacking to me. Do we have concrete examples?

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#23
post #8

I'm dismayed by this ruling but I'm curious: can someone defend it? I'm able to understand the counter-perspectives to my own on many hot-button issues (2nd amendment, abortion bans) but this one seems very nakedly bad. But maybe I'm just not seeing the counterpoint?

If presidents could be prosecuted for their official acts then the next time the other party takes over they will just immediately find various crimes their predecessor “committed” (there are probably 10s of 1000s of them).

If presidents break the law, they should be prosecuted. I don't care who you are or what party you're with.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#24

Now we know that US presidents are above the law. I always assumed that was the case so this is just confirmation for everyone else who had any doubts.

[flagged]

I don't really understand what you're arguing about.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#25
post #8

I'm dismayed by this ruling but I'm curious: can someone defend it? I'm able to understand the counter-perspectives to my own on many hot-button issues (2nd amendment, abortion bans) but this one seems very nakedly bad. But maybe I'm just not seeing the counterpoint?

I believe the argument conservatives have been trying to make that aligns with the court's ruling is mostly about some very specific fear that an incoming or current president could prosecute former presidents and therefore crush dissent.

So basically you have the right scared of former presidents being unjustly targeted in a way that threatens the democratic process, and then you have the left scared that the immunity will itself threaten the democratic process/enable dictators and corruption. Unjust use of prosecution as a political weapon vs just plain corruption being shielded.

It sure seems to me like it would be better if these matters could be handled on a case by case basis rather than in some black and white "former presidents can" vs "former presidents can't" be prosecuted way, but perhaps that is what will end up happening, not a legal expert.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#26
post #8

I'm dismayed by this ruling but I'm curious: can someone defend it? I'm able to understand the counter-perspectives to my own on many hot-button issues (2nd amendment, abortion bans) but this one seems very nakedly bad. But maybe I'm just not seeing the counterpoint?

I can’t defend the ruling based on the actual effects, because it puts someone above the law.

However one could argue that this is the logical extension of qualified immunity for police officers which is precedent the court has already set.

To be clear though, I think qualified immunity of any sort shouldn’t be allowed. It’s a subversion of any kind of fair justice.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#29
post #8

I'm dismayed by this ruling but I'm curious: can someone defend it? I'm able to understand the counter-perspectives to my own on many hot-button issues (2nd amendment, abortion bans) but this one seems very nakedly bad. But maybe I'm just not seeing the counterpoint?

I believe the argument conservatives have been trying to make that aligns with the court's ruling is mostly about some very specific fear that an incoming or current president could prosecute former presidents and therefore crush dissent. So basically you have the right scared of former presidents being unjustly targeted in a way that threatens the democratic process, and then you have the left scared that the immuni…

> if these matters could be handled on a case by case basis rather than in some black and white "former presidents can" vs "former presidents can't" be prosecuted way

That's largely what's happening here. The President _can_ be prosecuted for things that fall outside of the official role as President. This is not a blanket immunity.

Re: Supreme Court rules ex-presidents have immunity for official acts

#30
post #8

I'm dismayed by this ruling but I'm curious: can someone defend it? I'm able to understand the counter-perspectives to my own on many hot-button issues (2nd amendment, abortion bans) but this one seems very nakedly bad. But maybe I'm just not seeing the counterpoint?

Sure. You want a President to be able to carry out the roles of the office without concern that his or her political opponents will use the courts to try to punish those actions. There are reasonable disagreements on where Presidential authority begins or ends on many topics, and you want the limits to be either through separation of powers (e.g., the Judicial Branch can bring an end to actions, the Legislative can i…

> Sure. You want a President to be able to carry out the roles of the office without concern that his or her political opponents will use the courts to try to punish those actions.

Hrm. Surely the implication you're outlining here is that the President will be breaking the law while carrying out "the roles of the office"? Is that not a concern?

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