It's getting harder to die • Hacker News Board

Re: It's getting harder to die

#231

Post by anonzzzies » Sun, Jun 30, 2024, 2:25 AM UTC

Aerbil313 wrote: post #223

anonzzzies wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> very scary - it is death after all. Is it? As an atheist I welcome the nothing; no more worrying about filling out taxes and such. Being religious you really should be jumping for joy (although you cannot kill yourself probably), but how is death scary if you believe in something after?

It’s not the death that is scary, it’s the Judgement Day that’ll come after. Because you don’t know whether you did enough good stuff to go straight to heaven, or first have to suffer in hell to account for your sins. Not all of us believe in a religion that says you are already forgiven and you’ll go to heaven, because God sent himself down to Earth to become His own son to sacrifice Himself to Himself to convince H…

I was raised with a particularly idiotic strain where you cannot repent or be forgiven; one mistake (however tiny) will be hell and that’s it. It is what made me an atheist at a young age (I think I was not even 10 when I decided it’s a bag of bull): it particularly exposes how weird religion is.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#232

Post by cityzen » Sun, Jun 30, 2024, 2:41 AM UTC

There is a great book called The Conspiracy Against the Human Race that talks about this in a way that makes sense to me:

As a survival-happy species, our successes are calculated in the number of years we have extended our lives, with the reduction of suffering being only incidental to this aim. To stay alive under almost any circumstances is a sickness with us. Nothing could be more unhealthy than to “watch one’s health” as a means of stalling death. The lengths we will go as procrastinators of that last gasp only demonstrate a morbid dread of that event. By contrast, our fear of suffering is deficient.

The book is very pessimistic but that’s the point, I quite enjoyed it.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#233

Post by magnetowasright » Sun, Jun 30, 2024, 2:57 AM UTC

zhynn wrote: post #132

magnetowasright wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Order of the Good Death has loads of resources on how to have these conversations, what your options for advanced directives etc. are, and guides on how to set everything up. https://www.orderofthegooddeath.com/ They also do a lot of advocacy around green burial, alkaline hydrolysis, and whatnot as well. Caitlin Doughty (who founded the Order of the Good Death) Ask a Mortician channel on youtube covers this stuff…

Thank you so so so much for posting this! I had no idea it existed, and I am so happy that it does. I also discovered that my home state has ZERO listed green burial sites, which is shocking to me because... I live in VT. I would have guessed it would be the leader in green burial, it is right up our wheelhouse!

I'm glad you found it useful!

They've got template letters for sending to politicians on the topics of greener death options and other related stuff. Maybe you can help your politicians know that it's an option that people want.

I want to be composted, personally. I hate those 'put your cremains in a seedling pot and turn into a tree' things because cremains can't nourish anything. Skip the cremation, have a green burial or be composted, and ACTUALLY nourish a tree! I'd have thought green burials and human composting would be an easier sell because of the popularity of those cremains tree things, but apparently not.

Soapbox time: you (almost certainly) do not have to have your loved one embalmed. Bodies are safe and clean and won't smell if kept appropriately. If you are utilising the services of a funeral home and they tell you they won't (or can't) let you have an open casket or other viewing without the person being embalmed, it will be a policy of the funeral home at highest authority. It almost certainly is not the law, as much as some of these homes may try to convince you it is. If it is the law, make them explain which law it is and check. Bodies do not have to be embalmed for viewings. You can take your loved to another funeral home who doesn't pull that rubbish and they will have to release the body. Death is not an emergency and you can take a little time to know your rights and the law before being strong armed into an expensive and unnecessary procedure like embalming. Do it if you want to do it. Don't do it because you've been pressured into it in a time of grief.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#234

Post by anonymouskimmer » Sun, Jun 30, 2024, 2:58 AM UTC

Krssst wrote: post #230

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but implementing assisted death needs careful consideration Yes. > and defeating politically the small subset of people that think life with extreme suffering is precious. You don't need to defeat us. All you need is a clear-cut agreement between the patient and the doctor, preferably in advance for those who are physically unable to decide at the end, similar to a DNI. Between the patient and the doctor, and possi…

> All you need is a clear-cut agreement between the patient and the doctor, Then you are not part of the group of persons I was pointing out. Is was thinking of people against it regardless of the conditions. Some form of consent is needed for euthanasia. How strong this consent should be (written agreement before? Or must explicitly tell the doctor right before the injection?) needs to be decided after thinking care…

Euthanasia per se is illegal in all US states, but assisted suicide is legal in a number of US states. https://deathwithdignity.org/states/

I actually am probably one of the one's you are pointing out. In that I don't want a government sanctioned process for this (it leads to a slippery slope in the countries it has been enacted in[1]). At best I'm basically in favor of decriminalization, not legalization, and not a standardized process that can be altered over time.

"By establishing a social policy that keeps physician-assisted suicide and euthanasia illegal but recognizes exceptions, we would adopt the correct moral view: the onus of proving that everything had been tried and that the motivation and rationale were convincing would rest on those who wanted to end a life.

Ezekiel Emanuel"

[1] - see point 6: https://haase.org.uk/history-of-euthanasia/

Also this case in Canada of a woman with MCS who couldn't get better housing away from the chemicals. It was easier to give her medical assistance in dying than to get her to a house or apartment free from other people's smoke and cleaning chemicals: https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/woman-with-chemical-sensitivit...

She's not the only Canadian case of it being easier to grant MAID than to get functioning health and welfare services. One person was granted it because he was about to become homeless.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#235

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Sun, Jun 30, 2024, 3:55 AM UTC

anonzzzies wrote: post #219

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this has been my experience with a family friend who died of a brain tumor. Basically, once you're in hospice (in this case it was home hospice) and it's clear you're going to die, they just hook you up to the morphine drip that you can press yourself. Obviously for many people it's still very scary - it is death after all. But the self-administered morphine drip has been around for ages and is relatively uncont…

> very scary - it is death after all. Is it? As an atheist I welcome the nothing; no more worrying about filling out taxes and such. Being religious you really should be jumping for joy (although you cannot kill yourself probably), but how is death scary if you believe in something after?

Only on HN do we have to explain why death may be scary to some people. Sometimes I wonder if this place is populated by actual humans.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#236

Post by Perenti » Sun, Jun 30, 2024, 6:50 AM UTC

WhitneyLand wrote: post #97

Perenti wrote: post #54

It's worse than the article says, because it's from a doctor's perspective. I have CRPS, one of the contenders for worst chronic pain you can have. It's a "suicide disease", because if it advances to stage 3/4, there's a suicide rate of about 70%. It sucks a lot. I've had well over 200 spinal procedures over the last 30 years to try to mitigate the pain, with dozens of other surgical procedures in less tricky spots.…

May I ask if you’ve considered taking measures to end your own life? I think I’ve had an unusual number of people close to me choose that option, including my father recently so I guess I’m still trying to reconcile it all. Their pain vs mine, what could have played out differently, etc. I sincerely wish the best outcome for you and yours.

Yes. I don't qualify for Voluntary Assisted Dying though. If I ever need it I can take stronger measures, using simple science and engineering. I did have a cardiologist suggest that if he was me he'd refuse getting implant upgrades and fixes, which was sobering.

Chronic pain changes you, and rarely for the better. It's nigh impossible for someone who hasn't had to deal with 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for months or years on end pain that's up on the extreme end of the scale. We try to hide it, to protect our families and loved ones for what we live, but sometimes it's too much.

Suicide is natures' rational solution to unending torment. Christian teachings and traditions try to say that suffering is holy, and it is righteous to endure. How come it makes people into assholes then?

Between knowing I have the option, and the amazing power of venlafaxine, I do not need to either fixate on or commit suicide though. At least for a while now.

I will never judge anyone who intentionally kills themselves as I don't know how painful their reality was.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#237

Post by Perenti » Sun, Jun 30, 2024, 6:51 AM UTC

LocalH wrote: post #119

fdsavjakslj wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not personal-- the docs are there to cure disease and just doing what they know, personhood be darned. Also, in the moment, it's entirely possible that somebody who is otherwise completely rational who just had a life-altering experience is temporarily less than completely rational and you're only hearing that one side of the story.

That's the problem. It's not personal, and humanity is not even a factor in that hospital's assessment. Why does society refuse to allow people to have mental and physical autonomy in matters like this? Sure, they pay lip service to it, but when it comes down to the hard moments, we almost always end up erring on the wrong side.

Yep. They just see a life to save, and will do everything they can to achieve it. It get's worse with a rare disease, as they want to be in the paper about it.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#238

Post by exe34 » Sun, Jun 30, 2024, 7:18 AM UTC

anonzzzies wrote: post #219

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this has been my experience with a family friend who died of a brain tumor. Basically, once you're in hospice (in this case it was home hospice) and it's clear you're going to die, they just hook you up to the morphine drip that you can press yourself. Obviously for many people it's still very scary - it is death after all. But the self-administered morphine drip has been around for ages and is relatively uncont…

> very scary - it is death after all. Is it? As an atheist I welcome the nothing; no more worrying about filling out taxes and such. Being religious you really should be jumping for joy (although you cannot kill yourself probably), but how is death scary if you believe in something after?

as an atheist who has been suicidal from around age 12, I'm not afraid of being dead, but actually causing my own death has been very difficult - it's not so much a logical fear as a mental block, it's like you're moving through very thick syrup trying to get the thing done, you're fighting a mental force that's holding you back, and eventually all the commitment and energy that you had invested in getting it done just seems to have dissipated and you just feel empty. I'm my case at least, the survival instinct has won every battle. unless of course we have quantum immortality, it would explain why I keep failing.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#239

Post by ido » Sun, Jun 30, 2024, 8:32 AM UTC

mantas wrote: post #172

Liquix wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

booze has been around for thousands of years. it's not good for you but it's also not a new phenomenon driving suicide numbers up. IMHO it's a combination of low wages, high cost of living, and scrolling/gaming/streaming/porn addiction. we don't know how to talk about it yet but it's fucking people up. human brains were not ready for what the internet has become

Booze - yes. Culture around booze… not exactly. Serious drinking was reserved for festivals and generally frowned upon. Nowadays… it’s much more common and much more abused. And modern alcohol is getting stronger and stronger, same with other drugs.

I’m curious - are you American? I’ve had some former coworkers (non-Americans) who used to work in San Francisco and it sounded like they encountered a culture of drinking at work that I’ve never seen in Germany or Austria. I remember one story about every Wednesday afternoon a booze cart would go through the office and people would get absolutely hammered on hard liquor (while still at work!)

I don’t know if this was specific to that (large, household name) company or if that’s emblematic but it sounded like a very bad idea (they had more stories of excessive drinking but that was the one I recall off the top of my head).

Re: It's getting harder to die

#240

Post by delta_p_delta_x » Sun, Jun 30, 2024, 9:48 AM UTC

bowsamic wrote: post #199

delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> stab > fricking Do you really have to be so violent in response? There exist supervised injection sites for narcotics. You bring the drugs, the healthcare workers give you clean syringes/needles/paraphernalia and help you with the injection. As a society we have decided that it is OK for people to potentially wreck their own lives with narcotics. Why not a similar concept for dying, where the end is only eternal ob…

Why are you against religious views?

I think religion has done more harm to humanity as a whole than anything else, and none more so than the two most popular monotheistic, evangelical, 'convert or die' religions. Religion is a vehicle to power, and I dislike it.

There are of course some very positive side effects like beautiful architecture and music, and plenty of philosophical debate, but I wish it came without the baggage. But then again, I feel the two Abrahamic religions are philosophically scarce—can't have debate when everyone who disagrees with you is killed or converted.