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It's getting harder to die

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Re: It's getting harder to die

#181

Post by celdon25 »

delta_p_delta_x wrote: post #77

I'd like dying to be as easy as flicking a switch. Medically-assisted suicide ought to be available to anyone (not only of sound mind and not only with a terminal condition), and at any time. People ought to have the right to die, just like they have the right to water, food, and shelter. In most countries it is currently easier to take other people's lives than to take one's own. People ought to be able to step into…

> The belief that life is a gift from a god is a highly Christocentric, Western view that I disagree with. We are brought into the world without any real consent; we should at least be able to easily choose the date, time, and manner of our passing if we so desire.

Too bad that's only one of many arguments against euthanasia, and one of the easier ones to grandstand against.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/euthanasia/against/against_1.sh...

Re: It's getting harder to die

#182

Post by Zenzero »

timnetworks wrote: post #87

Someone in the medical profession explained to me what 'do everything you can' means to doctors and surgeons, it's a binding command. My instructions are likely going to be 'do two things that you probably should at this point and then go have lunch'

> Someone in the medical profession explained to me what 'do everything you can' means to doctors and surgeons, it's a binding command

I've found that usually the people who said that to me were the least prepared for what that meant.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#183

Post by mcmcmc »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #103
treprinum wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's run a thought experiment - you make death super easy like in a suicide booth in Futurama. How many people are going to fight life obstacles, pushing society forward, or rather terminally quit at the first sign of troubles? Nihilism was quite popular in the 19th century and led us to two world wars already. All you'll get is a quick extinction of people like you in favor of those that persist and your opinion wi…

Nihilism has nothing to do with either world war. You’re likely trying to blame Nietzsche, who was the polar opposite of a nihilist, for German nationalism. The radical optimist Nietzsche, in his old age while writing Ecco homo, disavowed his German heritage and spoke about how awesome Poland and his polish identity were. Nihilism is only just now having an impact in the academy as it is the intellectual foundation o…

It’s also vastly ignorant of the causes of World War I which had fuck all to do with nihilism. A radical fighting for Bosnian independence assassinated a Hapsburg, and then entangling alliances escalated what might’ve been a localized conflict into a world war.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#184

Post by celdon25 »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #180
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you really have to be so violent in response? I was trying to meet your request for an option that came as close as possible to just flicking a switch. > Step into a room, step inside a pod, press a button, pod closes, press another button to replace the air with nitrogen, done. I know of a friend of a friend who did this on his own. If you are of sufficient capacity to step into some place and press a button th…

No. The tank that can hold enough nitrogen (or helium or argon--same volume means the same pressure which means effectively the same weight) to do the job reliably is heavy. By the time your health is such that you would choose that path you likely can't lift it. I have seen my wife struggle with lifting that weight when it's in a form meant to be lifted. I've seen her fail when it wasn't as cooperative.

Too bad, I guess that leaves out the "use disproportionately large amounts of the agent to hotbox the room" method. But that doesn't invalidate the point of the parent comment.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#185

Post by el_duderino_ »

cjk2 wrote: post #91
pavel_lishin wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of me really wants to pick up hockey - just for fun, recreationally - but at 40, I'm worried that I'll get injured to the point where I won't be able to do other things I enjoy, like cycling. Hell, I fell off my bike from a stop a few weeks ago, and landed on my knee, and it took a week and a half before I felt like I could trust my leg to hold weight.

Don't do it. My sister took up hockey when she was 16 and lost 4 front teeth within 3 months. She's 45 now and just had the second set of replacements...

Of all the hockey injuries, this one rates pretty low for adult beer league if you just wear a cage. Wearing a full face cage reduces the risk of losing teeth to almost 0% chance of happening.

Hockey does have risks of course, but playing in a non checking league takes the risk down to manageable levels in my opinion.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#186

Post by el_duderino_ »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #79
cjk2 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey you're me 15 years ago. I stopped the sports and switched to sustained low damage exercise like cycling, hiking, swimming etc. While you can't undo the damage done if you have a very high level of fitness, you can reduce the effects of the further progression of time. Better be as fit as a 50 year old with some damage when you're 70 than as fit as a 70 year old with some damage. End game is not pretty. My ex wife…

Part of me really wants to pick up hockey - just for fun, recreationally - but at 40, I'm worried that I'll get injured to the point where I won't be able to do other things I enjoy, like cycling. Hell, I fell off my bike from a stop a few weeks ago, and landed on my knee, and it took a week and a half before I felt like I could trust my leg to hold weight.

I recommend it fully! I learned to play at 32 and I am having a blast. Still some risk, but my local league is very laid back and we run very safe games. Being kitted out in protective gear really does make a difference in preventing injuries.

Check and see if your local rink has an intro to hockey class and use that to get a feel for hockey.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#187

Post by LorenPechtel »

Zenzero wrote: post #178
julianeon wrote: post #95

I think sometimes these articles don't pose the question all that well. The way I would ask it is: Imagine a pain scale of 1-10; pretend 10 is so high that you die from the pain. Is it worth living at a 7-8 at every moment continuously, to extend your life for 2 months? How about living at a 9 for just 2 more weeks? If you say "no" that just means you're not hooked up to a machine where that's your living experience…

Doctor here. This is overly simplistic. There is little to debate about your example of living at a 7/8 for 2 months. What is more realistic is some hypothetical situation where the average patient has an expected survival of 6 to 18 months, with the hope that the 7/8 pain can be reduced to a 4/5, and with acknowledgement that some days may be a score of 5, some days may be a score of 9. Then what? As a provider on t…

While I agree he's being too simplistic I think you're not getting it, either. You're making the standard error of the medical world of focusing too much on stuffing pigeons into pigeonholes because once you have found the supposedly correct (look at the patients who go to doctor after doctor after doctor until someone finally finds the rare issue that's the correct diagnosis--and realize that there are those who never get answers) pigeonhole you see the pigeonhole rather than the patient.

You're looking into that pigeonhole and observing the result is anywhere from two weeks of horror to three years of not too bad. Just because you can't predict how any given case will turn out doesn't mean you can't look at the patients and see how things are turning out. And recognize that things are not static--your first patient doesn't exist. Things don't just sit there at three for three years and then kill you.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#188

Post by anonymouskimmer »

rrgok wrote: post #154
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a good point. I guess the only counter argument is that, so far, in general, postponing elective death also leads to a bunch of solutions to other problems over the course of a life, even if the original problem is unsolvable.

People forget that the other problems are created by life itself. There is no way out by playing its game. You cannot escape the problem making machine by using it: it will only produce more problems. But the truth is that I'm not convinced that death is the "the winning move is not playing it". You see death is life: in order to die you must be alive first. That's why lately I'm thinking unconsciousness is the way o…

The end of the universe is created by pre-life physics. I think it's unknown to humanity at this point whether a sufficiently advanced technology can deal with that.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#189

Post by anonymouskimmer »

LorenPechtel wrote: post #171
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but implementing assisted death needs careful consideration Yes. > and defeating politically the small subset of people that think life with extreme suffering is precious. You don't need to defeat us. All you need is a clear-cut agreement between the patient and the doctor, preferably in advance for those who are physically unable to decide at the end, similar to a DNI. Between the patient and the doctor, and possi…

You're assuming the person has enough function to commit suicide.

If you reread my comment more closely you'll see that I'm not. I list a couple of options, only one of which is suicide. I'm willing to tolerate various things that I consider repugnant, even though there is a limit.

Re: It's getting harder to die

#190

Post by anonymouskimmer »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #155
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are anti-euthanasia atheists (E.g. Kevin Yuell).

There are pro assisted suicide religions too. Neither of those matter because they don’t hold massive, disproportional influence over a huge part of the US political establishment.

In general in the US only White Evangelical Protestants and Black Protestants have less than a majority who believe assisted suicide / euthanasia should be available for "great pain and no hope of improvement", and those two groups still have over 40% who believe it should be available.

And that's as of 2015, so the trend may be higher by now. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2015/10/05/californi...

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