Live data from Hacker News

Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

axios.com

861–870 of 1001 posts

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#861

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Congress can't actually legislate anything while it's held hostage by obstructionists That’s a feature, not a bug.

I don't think there are many Americans who prefer a deadlocked and dysfunctional congress that is incapable of doing their jobs. We have a lot of things that need doing in this country which can't get done when obstructionists stand in the way. There will always be some number of petty people who don't care what the costs are as long as "their team" isn't allowing the "other team" a win, and those who don't want the…

> I don't there are many Americans who prefer a deadlocked and dysfunctional congress that is incapable of doing their jobs. We have a lot of things that need doing in this country which can't get done when obstructionists stand in the way.

I know a lot of them. And it's how the system was designed, by the way. Congress was supposed to generally be weak and deadlocked unless an overwhelming majority of people wanted something.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#862

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not surprised that conservative-leaning court has put their finger on the scale of what they always described as “activism of agencies” and “legislating from the bench” by pushing the congress to act - I see it as consistent with conservative principles. I am not saying I agree with it or condemn it - rather stating the path forward. I too would like congress to start acting the part. They have the tools.

How do you expect Congress to legislate when one side refuses to legislate?

Compromise and deal making. How do you get your wife to agree to a 92" TV if she refuses initially?

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#863

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I liked this section of Justice Gorsuch's concurrence: > How bad is the problem? Take just one example. Brand X concerned a law regulating broadband internet services. There, the Court upheld an agency rule adopted by the administration of President George W. Bush because it was premised on a “reasonable” interpretation of the statute. Later, President Barack Obama’s administration rescinded the rule and replaced it…

But fundamentally, how is this different than what the Supreme Court does? The Supreme Court interprets the constitution and its meaning as it relates to whether or not a law is constitutional. The overturning of Roe v Wade is the direct result of the current court saying 'actually, the way we previously interpreted the constitution was wrong'. We've gone through significant uncertainty and convulsive change as a res…

>But fundamentally, how is this different than what the Supreme Court does? The Supreme Court interprets the constitution and its meaning as it relates to whether or not a law is constitutional. The overturning of Roe v Wade is the direct result of the current court saying 'actually, the way we previously interpreted the constitution was wrong'.

That's sort of the point, because congress has abdicated their responsibility for so long, many of the "laws" and "rights" that exist in our legal framework are mere shadows of actual legislation. They're executive whims or judicial policies, both of which are inherently fragile and subject to sudden change. Roe v. Wade was the "law of the land" only to the extent that the courts continued to interpret an ambiguity in the law the same way as they always had. Congress had decades to shore up a case that even the jurist who were part of it said was extremely weak. Everyone knew it was fragile and the DNC cashed in on that fragility every election.

Or consider medical marijuana, which is currently only un-prosecuted at the federal level because the president told the DEA to chill out for a bit. The fact that in November the next president could change their mind and conduct federal raids of dispensaries across the country is not a good thing. You might argue that they couldn't do that because the medical marijuana industries and laws are crafted to avoid crossing state lines, but that depends on A) ignoring decades of Wickard (which admittedly the current SCOTUS might be willing to do, but boy if you think this decision or Roe was controversial, that would be a doozy) and B) ignore the very obvious fact that some of that legal supply is leaking across state lines illegally.

The fact that Net Neutrality is on again/off-again is another example of this. Major legal decisions are being left to the whims of two octogenarians who it's a miracle manage to get through the day without shitting their pants, and a judicial system that is inconsistent at the best of times. The courts have always been political, but if they are uniquely so at this time, it's because the folks interested in politics have figured out its easier to get what they want via executive fiat and judicial wrangling, and congress has learned their jobs and income are more secure when they don't have to take the blame for those things.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#864

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The court decided this on statutory grounds because that's what this court likes to do: base decisions on the narrowest grounds possible. But it mentioned Marbury quite prominently and it's pretty clear that the court will not sustain a law that codifies Chevron.

Isn't the only reason the Supreme Court would not sustain a law is because it is unconstitutional? And otherwise their only role is to interpret laws? At least that's the way it is supposed to be AFAIK.

Sometimes they get it wrong.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#865

Congress can actually legislate the right of agencies to interpret the gaps in the laws back into effect - by passing a law that explicitly gives agencies this power. Just like congress can legislate abortion laws rather than leaving it to judicial precedence. Fundamentally there’s nothing wrong with the position of supreme court to push the responsibility of lawmaking back on congress.

> Just like congress can legislate abortion laws

That might violate the 10th Amendment since it wasn't explicitly delegated to the federal government.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#866

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not surprised that conservative-leaning court has put their finger on the scale of what they always described as “activism of agencies” and “legislating from the bench” by pushing the congress to act - I see it as consistent with conservative principles. I am not saying I agree with it or condemn it - rather stating the path forward. I too would like congress to start acting the part. They have the tools.

How do you expect Congress to legislate when one side refuses to legislate?

They could start by changing their rules so that one side can't refuse to legislate. Congress decides how Congress operates, and for some reason despite everyone being awful mad about it, Congress has never decided to make it harder for congress to be obstructed by Congress. They have from time to time made it easier (see filibuster-less filibustering), seems like they could undo that any time they'd like to get back to work.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#867

Devastating that expertise will no longer influence the application of law and policy. The biggest question is who will interpret the application of law? Will it be challenged in court once again until a clear statement is made? Meanwhile, what will be the effects of this “deregulation” until a clear statement is made

>Devastating that expertise will no longer influence the application of law and policy Not true. Congress is free to continue to delegate to experts when it comes to writing laws and policy. What they are no longer free to do is write vague laws and policy and expect the judicial branch to inject their own favor when interpreting that vagueness. The judicial branch will once again do what it should have been doing al…

> and expect the judicial branch to inject their own favor when interpreting that vagueness. The judicial branch will once again do what it should have been doing all along: simply interpret the law.

No, with Chevron deference, they expected the executive branch agencies to interpret unspecified parts of certain laws, because they were the ones supposed to implement them, e.g., the definition of "source of air pollution" in the Clean Air Act of 1963. The judicial branch actually is "injecting its own behavior" in that this means they will interpret more laws than they otherwise would have.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#868

There’s a lot of negativity around this ruling here on HN. As a not-lawyer, non expert, I welcome this ruling. The strongest argument I can make in favor of this come from the dissenting opinion by Justice Kagan: > This Court has long understood Chevron deference to reflect what Congress would want, and so to be rooted in a presumption of legislative intent. Congress knows that it does not—in fact cannot—write perfec…

> When incompetence is rewarded by reduced work loads, incompetence is amplified.

What? When incompetence has more responsibility, the effect of incompetence is amplified.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#869
post #99

I'm impressed that they can so easily dispose of 40 years of law making by Congress that assumed that agencies would interpret the statutes and make rules for regulating their area of authority. Now Congress is going to have to specify every possible consequence of laws in the statutes, otherwise a judge will decide. So agencies will not have any power to actually regulate. Awesome logic work, but terrible legal thin…

Nah, they just have to do more work to ensure the law is clear enough to not attract too many challenges.

Letting a government decide in the face of ambiguous, poorly written laws is so obviously a wrong thing, that you wonder why the original Chevron decision was made.

It really is the other side of the coin to "ignorance of the law is no defence". It is incumbent on the govt to make the law as clear as is reasonably possible.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#870

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Untrue. The way it will work now is that judges will focus on their expertise—interpreting what the laws mean. And agency experts will focus on their expertise—applying that law to specific factual scenarios.

Actually without C Deference, agency experts can no longer apply that law to specific factual scenarios.

They absolutely can apply the law to specific factual scenarios. They just can't necessarily apply new legal theories to new factual scenarios without getting challenged. The words "apply the law" generally do not mean "invent new legal theories."
Post reply on HN