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Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

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Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> easily dispose of 40 years As I tried to explain to people in 2016, your kids are going to be living with the consequences of your vote for generations. We are in a new era of judicial supremacy and they are out of bubble gum.

>"We are in a new era of judicial supremacy" Are you from Latin America?Martinelli (Panama) has been complaining of "Civil Dictatorship" since being on trial and hidden inside the Nicaraguan Embassy. Chavez (Costa Rica) is denouncing a Democratic "Dictatorship then Tyranny" because he finds independece of powers (Executive, Legislative and Judicial) cumbersome. Dangerous direction, people complaining about power bala…

The already extremely powerful judiciary continually increasing their power and removing the power of the legislative and executive branches is not exactly something that encourages power balance checks.

As for whether or not the person you are replying to is from a certain region of the planet - what are you trying to imply here? I'm from the USA - does that mean that I agree with everything Trump or Biden says? This is a weird, and IMO, distasteful, way to make an argument.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's already been a big issue with 'regulatory capture' and lobbying in government. Congress is only going to delegate when some other entity, likely a business, isn't already writing the law/regulation. A concrete example: Boeing is going to up their lobbying game hard . They can now not only help write the laws, but help choose who says they've broken them. There is no way that it will be good for passengers bef…

Good thing Boeing hasn't already been doing that /s

Burning a man alive with a stubbed toe: "He was already injured!".

Yes. Lobbying is already a huge problem. This ruling exclusively makes it worse.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#613

This seems like the judicial branch just voted to give itself substantially more power. Are there any checks against this? Or can justices just keep granting themselves more powers and invalidating any restraints?

Voting for a reasonable human for president is probably the important check to keep in mind for the next few months

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Chevron deference case is one of the most cited court cases in the US and this decision threatens to throw Federal regulations into chaos as a bunch of Districts redecide decades of precedent. Since the appeals courts can reach contradictory decisions and keep them in play until the Supreme Court makes a conclusive decision, any company at the national level will have to figure out how to square that circle. Rega…

Sometimes you need to refactor the code, even when it’s going to be a huge mess to do so.

[deleted]

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What side effects?

This basically flips the judicial review logic from "did the regulator act within the scope of the law?" to "are there other ways the regulator could have acted that would also be within the scope of the law? If so, the judge decides which set of actions the regulator must take" I.e., anything Congress does not explicitly state in a law is now determined by federal judges. At the extreme, this is aggrandizing a very…

The entire purpose of the judiciary is to interpret the law. This is what they are supposed to do.

Chevron curtailed this essential power in favor of taking an agency at its word, which is quite a dangerous stance.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#616

From Justice Kagan's dissent on page 82: > This Court has long understood Chevron deference to reflect what Congress would want, and so to be rooted in a presumption of legislative intent. Congress knows that it does not—in fact cannot—write perfectly complete regulatory statutes... > It knows that those statutes will inevitably contain ambiguities that some other actor will have to resolve, and gaps that some other…

To put it a bit differently: Congress has not been able to pass substantial laws in decades. The executive branch has filled in by interpreting these laws very loosely in order to adapt to the changing situation and—importantly—to adapt to changing presidencies. That last part is the single biggest problem with the administrative regime as it has stood hitherto: it means that almost everything that happens in the fed…

I agree, but what's the solution? Aside from a complete overhaul of our system of government, which realistically would require armed revolution or some sort of bizarrely-peaceful military-supported coup d'etat.

> If this forces Congress to get their shit together and pass lasting laws

It won't. One of our political parties is hell bent on removing rights, reducing protections on workers, the environment, everything. They want a significantly smaller federal government. They wield enough power that there is no way that, for example, if Congress had to do all of the EPA's rulemaking jobs, anything would actually get passed.

States have some ability to take this on (for now, at least). California's vehicle emission standards, which end up being the de-facto national standards, are one example. But I could easily see conservative SCOTUS not letting this stand, and coming up with bullshit reasons why those rules are unenforceable.

And this is a part of the problem. The conservatives cry "states' rights!" at every turn, but they are still quick to strike down (at a federal level) things that progressive states do that they don't like. The other part of the problem is that there are quite a few policy things that you can't leave to a patchwork of states to decide for themselves. You need national unity for it to matter.

> It's just going to be very uncomfortable for the next few decades as we sort it all out.

Awesome, by the time that happens, I'll be an old man unlikely to see any of the benefits of it eventually becoming sorted out.

More likely, I expect Trump to win this fall, and he'll dismantle and destroy the executive branch, and further degrade any trust in institutions that we have left.

...

One thing I do think would help would be to fix representation in the House. House membership was regularly expanded as the nation's population grew, but has been left static for over a century now. One of the more reasonable methods I've seen for determining the total number of seats in Congress would have us at around 700 now[0] (vs. the 435 we actually have).

There are a lot of options here, and it can be instructive to look at other countries for comparison. The UK has a fifth of the US's population, but their House of Commons has 650 members. But on the other end of the spectrum, India, with a population 4x that of the US, has a lower Parliament chamber with a maximum of only 552, though that's a constitutional requirement and perhaps harder to change. Anyhow, if we were more like the UK, the US House would have around 3,250 members (a quite nice ~100k constituents per representative). That's probably a bit too unwieldy? But if we were more like India, the US house would shrink to 135, which is almost certainly far too few (mind-boggling ~2.5M constituents per representative).

Not only would a larger House mean better representation for constituents (both being more proportional, and having each representative represent fewer people), but it would mean larger committees, and more people to tackle various rulemaking jobs that are currently handled by executive agencies. I do expect that a larger, more proportional House would end up being more left-leaning, so I'm obviously biased at least somewhat in my desire for this to happen. (As an aside, would fewer constituents per Congressional district make gerrymandering more difficult? Intuitively I think so, though I have no real basis for believing that.)

[0] https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/03/28/danielle-... (cube-root method)

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea of Congress delegating certain powers dates back to 1825, with further precedents from the 1920s and 1930s (and more recent): * https://constitution.findlaw.com/article1/annotation03.html It's not a new idea that some ambiguities are left to the Executive to figure out. The Chevron decision was basically a codification of what had been done for decades before it.

The early precedents were things like delegating to the customs department lists of items for tariff schedules. Virtually all the precedent reallocating the power to make law was upheld under the threat of court packing in the 1930s and is suspect and ripe for revisiting.

From the original, unanimous, Chevron ruling:

> When a challenge to an agency construction of a statutory provision, fairly conceptualized, really centers on the wisdom of the agency's policy, rather than whether it is a reasonable choice within a gap left open by Congress, the challenge must fail. In such a case, federal judges—who have no constituency—have a duty to respect legitimate policy choices made by those who do. The responsibilities for assessing the wisdom of such policy choices and resolving the struggle between competing views of the public interest are not judicial ones: "Our Constitution vests such responsibilities in the political branches."

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevron_U.S.A.,_Inc._v._Natura....

That was in 1984: long past alleged, so-called "the threat of court packing" period.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#618

This is unbelievably good news! It's time to move power out of the hands of bureaucrats back into Congress where it belongs.

Yes! I look forward to network and IT related laws being created by congress! They’ve got the age and experience to truly get it right!

/s

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#620
post #531

Devastating that expertise will no longer influence the application of law and policy. The biggest question is who will interpret the application of law? Will it be challenged in court once again until a clear statement is made? Meanwhile, what will be the effects of this “deregulation” until a clear statement is made

> Devastating that expertise will no longer influence the application of law and policy. How on earth do you come to that conclusion? Nothing stop Congress from leveraging experts in drafting laws. This simply requires that interpretation of law be done in a clear transparent way (courts), rather than by a nameless, faceless, unelected bureacrat. How can anyone say "no, I'd rather have some bureaucrat do it"?

Judges are also unelected bureaucrats, and they are less subject to democratic oversight since they have lifetime appointments vs agency heads who are appointed by the executive branch and can be effectively "voted out" if voters choose a different president who replaces them.
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