What a nice ruling, showing so much compassion, generosity and common sense, that it would make a decent Phillip K Dick Story.
"Flow my Tears!" the policeman said...
Supreme Court Upholds Ban on Sleeping Outdoors in Homelessness Case
21–30 of 31 posts
Re: Supreme Court Upholds Ban on Sleeping Outdoors in Homelessness Case
#22The court's previous ruling on this was that you couldn't make "being homeless" illegal, and so laws against things like sleeping in the park were only valid if there was a reasonable alternative available. Generally this meant that the municipality needed to provide homeless shelters. I can't say that I like this outcome, since now cities are motivated to just run the homeless out of town rather than helping them in…
> Generally this meant that the municipality needed to provide homeless shelters. The previous ruling was always kind of a kabuki theater. Homeless people often don't want to live in shelters - the exposure to crime and drugs and rules and lack of space is often worse than just living outside. So the previous ruling was still a blank check to harass homeless people so long as you dumped a bunch of money into a terrib…
Living outside also exposes you to crime, drugs, and danger too. Sometimes homeless people end up "captured" by gangs using threat of violence or cutting off a vice, and are forced to do things like sell drugs, sell scrap, or sell themselves to keep up with the taxation imposed by these gangs. Is everyone captured on the street like this? Of course not, but a few are, and there's really no recourse or protection. Are things maybe not so pretty in all shelters? Of course, but I'd take a facility where at least there is some recourse for bad action where it happens over the street where there is no recourse at all and you might end up as a modern slave to a gang member.
Re: Supreme Court Upholds Ban on Sleeping Outdoors in Homelessness Case
#23I disagree with this ruling, but something that really, really pissed me off is this paragraph: "The town had no homeless shelter, aside from one run by a religious organization that required, among other rules, attendance at Christian services." Am I the only one that thinks it's wrong to require someone to attend a church to receive services from that church? I go to church and we will try to help anyone we can wit…
There aren't many good christians left. A lot of churches in socal today have metal gates over their front steps to prevent anyone from sheltering on them. Growing up, I figured big city churches always opened their doors and pews for people to sleep, but apparently that was a trope from hollywood and not what many churches today at least do for their local community.
Re: Supreme Court Upholds Ban on Sleeping Outdoors in Homelessness Case
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Generally this meant that the municipality needed to provide homeless shelters. The previous ruling was always kind of a kabuki theater. Homeless people often don't want to live in shelters - the exposure to crime and drugs and rules and lack of space is often worse than just living outside. So the previous ruling was still a blank check to harass homeless people so long as you dumped a bunch of money into a terrib…
Living outside also exposes you to crime, drugs, and danger too. Sometimes homeless people end up "captured" by gangs using threat of violence or cutting off a vice, and are forced to do things like sell drugs, sell scrap, or sell themselves to keep up with the taxation imposed by these gangs. Is everyone captured on the street like this? Of course not, but a few are, and there's really no recourse or protection. Are…
Well, the way that it was explained to me is that tent-living is kind of the "middle class" lifestyle among people who identify as homeless. The main problem with the shelters is that you don't have a fixed address, you don't have privacy, and you don't a way to collect and store possessions. Living in a tent or camp gives you self-sufficiency and the ability to make more choices.
Re: Supreme Court Upholds Ban on Sleeping Outdoors in Homelessness Case
#25The court's previous ruling on this was that you couldn't make "being homeless" illegal, and so laws against things like sleeping in the park were only valid if there was a reasonable alternative available. Generally this meant that the municipality needed to provide homeless shelters. I can't say that I like this outcome, since now cities are motivated to just run the homeless out of town rather than helping them in…
Yeah. Reading the opinion, the logical argument of criminalizing a status (homeless) versus an action (camping in public) makes sense. The action applies to everyone. We as a society need to continue trying to solve the problem of homelessness. However, leveraging the 8th Amendment, in part, to do it doesn’t make sense.
So if you are homeless, how do you avoid running afoul of the law?
Re: Supreme Court Upholds Ban on Sleeping Outdoors in Homelessness Case
#26I disagree with this ruling, but something that really, really pissed me off is this paragraph: "The town had no homeless shelter, aside from one run by a religious organization that required, among other rules, attendance at Christian services." Am I the only one that thinks it's wrong to require someone to attend a church to receive services from that church? I go to church and we will try to help anyone we can wit…
There aren't many good christians left. A lot of churches in socal today have metal gates over their front steps to prevent anyone from sheltering on them. Growing up, I figured big city churches always opened their doors and pews for people to sleep, but apparently that was a trope from hollywood and not what many churches today at least do for their local community.
There's a church in my area that has some signs and banners about welcoming all people, but also has a "no trespassing" sign. I approached the clergy of the church about it, and they tell me that the police requires the no trepassing sign, or else the police won't respond to incidents. I hate that dissonance.
Re: Supreme Court Upholds Ban on Sleeping Outdoors in Homelessness Case
#27I disagree with this ruling, but something that really, really pissed me off is this paragraph: "The town had no homeless shelter, aside from one run by a religious organization that required, among other rules, attendance at Christian services." Am I the only one that thinks it's wrong to require someone to attend a church to receive services from that church? I go to church and we will try to help anyone we can wit…
I don't like it either. But in a marginally better world, there would be several different places to find food and shelter. If a Christian who is homeless goes to shelter at that church, then that may make sense for them and they may find it a comfort, whereas anyone else is free to go somewhere else.
I really don't think society should push the responsibility of caring for the homeless on churches for exactly the reasons you find infuriating. This town is apparently doing nothing, and the only people doing anything is the church. I don't like the church attaching strings to food/shelter, but I think it's their right to do it. I'm more frustrated that there are no alternatives.
This country should seriously grapple with homelessness. Until then, the bare minimum should be guaranteed basic shelter, and we're not even doing that.
Re: Supreme Court Upholds Ban on Sleeping Outdoors in Homelessness Case
#28I really don't like this ruling. My reasoning is that a public park, for instance, is public property available for use to everyone. Anywhere you go will either be private, or public property. The homeless cannot sleep on private land, fine, but it's coldly unreasonable to say they cannot sleep in the park at night. During the day, ok, move along, I can accept that but.. The homeless are humans and we should stop tre…
On the other hand, the homeless being in the park generally leads to trash - needles, excrement, etc. The homeless occupying public lands and making them unfit for other people deprives those other people of their right to use the park. I should be free to walk downtown without stepping in human shit. I should not have to worry about needles and detritus in the public park. Agree society needs a better solution. Perh…
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Re: Supreme Court Upholds Ban on Sleeping Outdoors in Homelessness Case
#29I really don't like this ruling. My reasoning is that a public park, for instance, is public property available for use to everyone. Anywhere you go will either be private, or public property. The homeless cannot sleep on private land, fine, but it's coldly unreasonable to say they cannot sleep in the park at night. During the day, ok, move along, I can accept that but.. The homeless are humans and we should stop tre…
On the other hand, the homeless being in the park generally leads to trash - needles, excrement, etc. The homeless occupying public lands and making them unfit for other people deprives those other people of their right to use the park. I should be free to walk downtown without stepping in human shit. I should not have to worry about needles and detritus in the public park. Agree society needs a better solution. Perh…
You're not wrong, and neither is Molitor5901. As society currently stands, one group of people is fundamentally in conflict with another group of people. Neither group is doing anything wrong.
The proper solution is to address the needs of the homeless (specifically, provide them a home, or at the barest minimum, some safe place to sleep). Anything else is insufficient and cold-hearted.
Re: Supreme Court Upholds Ban on Sleeping Outdoors in Homelessness Case
#30I disagree with this ruling, but something that really, really pissed me off is this paragraph: "The town had no homeless shelter, aside from one run by a religious organization that required, among other rules, attendance at Christian services." Am I the only one that thinks it's wrong to require someone to attend a church to receive services from that church? I go to church and we will try to help anyone we can wit…
There aren't many good christians left. A lot of churches in socal today have metal gates over their front steps to prevent anyone from sheltering on them. Growing up, I figured big city churches always opened their doors and pews for people to sleep, but apparently that was a trope from hollywood and not what many churches today at least do for their local community.
Most Christian churches in America are elitist, hermetically-sealed cults. They come together one day a week to celebrate how superior and self-righteous they are, while stepping over homeless people and looking down on them the other 6 days and 22 hours of the week.