Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine • Hacker News Board

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#161

Post by colejohnson66 » Fri, Jun 28, 2024, 3:17 PM UTC

kyrra wrote: post #141

rootusrootus wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be somewhat amusing if Congress took the bait and wrote some legislation telling the Court to get back in its lane. Maybe the majority of justices would actually be okay with that.

SCOTUS is governed by the constitution. All congress has control over is the purse (money paid to the justices), number of justices, and appointment of justices. SCOTUS rules are set out in Article III. If congress wants to change the rules of SCOTUS, they will need to amend the constitution. Note that congress does have power over all lower federal courts, as they were created by congress. SCOTUS is special here tho…

The ability for SCOTUS to rule on Chevron isn't even in the Constitution! Marbury v. Madison was SCOTUS saying "we can overturn your executive and legislative choices" and no one bothered to stop them.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#162

Post by ceejayoz » Fri, Jun 28, 2024, 3:17 PM UTC

brodouevencode wrote: post #34

neaden wrote: post #3

This court continues to make decisions that might be defensible if you were making them for the first time, but go against decades of precedent in which time many laws have been written on the assumption that things would work a certain way. For a group that claims to be holding to tradition they sure are willing to throw things into chaos.

So if something that is seen as a bad idea should be kept in place because "that's the way we've always done it"?

There should be a very high threshold for "we're pressing the reset button on a regulatory infrastructure built on decades worth of precedent, #yolo!", yes.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#163

Post by kergonath » Fri, Jun 28, 2024, 3:17 PM UTC

bell-cot wrote: post #93

Before proclaiming that this outcome is horrible - Please consider that the Good Guys (your opinion) might not win the election in November. And that you might not want the courts auto-deferring to all the plausible-ish interpretations of ambiguous laws which gov't agency officials appointed by the Bad Guys (your opinion) might suddenly add the Official Agency Interpretations next year.

That is not a question of good guys and bad guys. It’s just that a system where the legislative branch micro-manages things like electrical safety in new homes to what you’re allowed to put in baby formula is completely unworkable. If “the bad guys” get into power, then the agency is still checked by the courts that are perfectly able to stop blatant overreach.

OTOH, congress physically cannot keep abreast of the state of the art in all of medicine to have an informed opinion on whether to ban or control a specific compound that turned out to be carcinogenic, to give but one example.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#164

Post by LargeWu » Fri, Jun 28, 2024, 3:17 PM UTC

kyrra wrote: post #141

rootusrootus wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be somewhat amusing if Congress took the bait and wrote some legislation telling the Court to get back in its lane. Maybe the majority of justices would actually be okay with that.

SCOTUS is governed by the constitution. All congress has control over is the purse (money paid to the justices), number of justices, and appointment of justices. SCOTUS rules are set out in Article III. If congress wants to change the rules of SCOTUS, they will need to amend the constitution. Note that congress does have power over all lower federal courts, as they were created by congress. SCOTUS is special here tho…

Congress doesn't amend the constitution unilaterally. The best they can do is propose an amendment. Amending the constitution today is effectively impossible.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#165

Post by rayiner » Fri, Jun 28, 2024, 3:17 PM UTC

jhp123 wrote: post #139

lolinder wrote: post #104

There's a tendency among certain people on HN to act like the conservative justices have no rhyme or reason and are just a bull running mindlessly through the china shop breaking precedent at random or specifically to hurt specific groups of people. I'm not a fan of every ruling that they've made, but this should have come as absolutely no surprise to anyone who's been paying any attention to the arguments that this…

who says that conservative justices have no rhyme or reason? Everyone knows they work shamelessly to advance their conservative political goals.

What do you call Griswold, which found new constitutional rights in “emanations from penumbras” in the constitutional text, if not “shameless?”

By contrast, you’re calling it “shameless” for the Court to decide that the judicial branch should be the final interpreter of statutes, not the executive branch. You’re literally engaging in Orwellian doublespeak.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#166

Post by EricDeb » Fri, Jun 28, 2024, 3:18 PM UTC

Molitor5901 wrote: post #91

FDAiscooked wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FDA finds food factory to be non compliant with food safety standards. FDA can't shut down the factory. It has to take it to court. A Judge with a JD or a jury of random people will decide if the factory can stay open. Factory stays open. Millions of people eat salmonella contaminated food.

That's absolutely 100% false. The Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act gives the FDA considerable authority to shut down a food factory if it is not adhering to regulations and laws regarding safety. Where do you find that the FDA cannot shut them down?

But who is making those regulations if congress doesnt write those specific regulations into law? Isn't that the whole point of this being overturned.. the FDA no longer can make regulations that arent explicitly outlined in a bill.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#167

Post by mp05 » Fri, Jun 28, 2024, 3:18 PM UTC

callroomlamp wrote: post #118

Devastating that expertise will no longer influence the application of law and policy. The biggest question is who will interpret the application of law? Will it be challenged in court once again until a clear statement is made? Meanwhile, what will be the effects of this “deregulation” until a clear statement is made

Perhaps this will cause us to start electing experts instead of lifelong politicians? The number of doctors, engineers, and scientists in Congress is pathetic.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#168

Post by Spooky23 » Fri, Jun 28, 2024, 3:18 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #104

There's a tendency among certain people on HN to act like the conservative justices have no rhyme or reason and are just a bull running mindlessly through the china shop breaking precedent at random or specifically to hurt specific groups of people. I'm not a fan of every ruling that they've made, but this should have come as absolutely no surprise to anyone who's been paying any attention to the arguments that this…

I think you’re not reading the room on this. There’s a rhyme and reason - this court has decided push an agenda in favor of a particular type of executive power and a dramatic increase in the power of the judiciary.

Judicial review has been the hallmark of judicial power since John Jay. Now, in the name of strict construction, the court has decreed that Federal courts shall be in the middle of routine executive operations. It’s absurd and gross.

Unfortunately, the dire predictions made after citizens united were spot on. A court of craven ideologues, with at least one openly in the pocket of a friendly billionaire, is shifting power to an unaccountable judiciary.

It sucks, we’re witnessing the slow death of the republic.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#169

Post by sandworm101 » Fri, Jun 28, 2024, 3:18 PM UTC

bbayles wrote: post #138

sandworm101 wrote: post #87

So if courts aren't to defer to agencies on such matters, to where do they look? Congress? The executive? We can hate on regulatory agencies all day long, but they are least get stuff done. They show up to work and figure out how to move forwards. This decision seams a win for those political groups who, rather than actual fix anything, are bent on throwing sand into the gearbox.

What did they do prior to 1984?

They did Chevron. Chevron was brought as a challenge to what was happening. The Chevron court basically said, "keep doing what you are doing. We are OK with it." Post-Chevron there was just a name and a more codified description of the past approach.

Re: Supreme Court overturns 40-year-old "Chevron deference" doctrine

#170

Post by hibikir » Fri, Jun 28, 2024, 3:18 PM UTC

lolinder wrote: post #123

mikeyouse wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody doubted this is where it would end up - but it's a terrible place at complete odds with judicial restraint and precedent. The courts are going to be the de facto regulatory body in the US going forward, a responsibility they granted themselves out of thin air.

> a terrible place at complete odds with judicial restraint On the contrary, they see themselves as them undoing many decades' worth of lack of judicial restraint. It's a change only because judicial activism has been the norm.

Once precedent has already been set over and over again, changing said precedent is, in itself, activism. Same as with Bruen: One can dress it in restraint all they want, but it's a massive divergence in the interpretation of the law, in ways that don't even necessarily have serious textualist support.