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Remembering Larry Finger, who made Linux wireless work

arstechnica.com

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Re: Remembering Larry Finger, who made Linux wireless work

#51

Post by [deleted] »

Aerbil313 wrote: post #34
freedomben wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've struggled philosophically with that very question as well (especially having to update my own WORKING code just to conform to API changes), and I'm very torn on it. I just don't think there's a good point to pick at which to "freeze" the API and say no more changes are allowed. It would greatly hamper innovation and IMHO ultimately lead the Linux kernel having major forks or being displaced by something more ada…

Just accept the fact that software does age with time. If it didn't change a literal bit, the real world in runs for and the software ecosystem it runs on did. Any software older than 10 years should be rewritten from absolute scratch, not be kept on life support at ever increasing expense.

[deleted]

Re: Remembering Larry Finger, who made Linux wireless work

#53

Post by nradov »

Aerbil313 wrote: post #34
freedomben wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've struggled philosophically with that very question as well (especially having to update my own WORKING code just to conform to API changes), and I'm very torn on it. I just don't think there's a good point to pick at which to "freeze" the API and say no more changes are allowed. It would greatly hamper innovation and IMHO ultimately lead the Linux kernel having major forks or being displaced by something more ada…

Just accept the fact that software does age with time. If it didn't change a literal bit, the real world in runs for and the software ecosystem it runs on did. Any software older than 10 years should be rewritten from absolute scratch, not be kept on life support at ever increasing expense.

Why?

Re: Remembering Larry Finger, who made Linux wireless work

#54

Post by nradov »

ak217 wrote: post #48
exe34 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even just keeping the driver compilable with each kernel release often took some non-trivial refactoring, I realise that the kernel contributors themselves are mostly volunteers and as such can just do what they want, and writers of non-upstreamed drivers will need to get used to chasing trunk, but to me this sort of thing seems like a waste of human talent. once something works, it should never not work again. it…

The Linux kernel has an incredibly strong userspace API stability guarantee. I think in practice this guarantee is unmatched in modern computing, and it's what allows things like containers to deliver such incredible long term value. Software is defined by its interfaces, and unlike userspace APIs, this guarantee does not apply to internal kernel APIs. The ability to update the latter is what enables the former. Inab…

Is there some reason that the Linux kernel couldn't offer a stable API for device drivers? At least for common types of devices. Would that really lead to ossification? Stable APIs usually make it easier to change code at lower levels.

Re: Remembering Larry Finger, who made Linux wireless work

#55

Post by viraptor »

shiroiushi wrote: post #49
ak217 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Linux kernel has an incredibly strong userspace API stability guarantee. I think in practice this guarantee is unmatched in modern computing, and it's what allows things like containers to deliver such incredible long term value. Software is defined by its interfaces, and unlike userspace APIs, this guarantee does not apply to internal kernel APIs. The ability to update the latter is what enables the former. Inab…

>Inability to update internal implementation details inevitably leads to ossification and obsolescence of the whole system. No, in practice I think it leads to growing complexity, because the system then adds additional APIs (e.g., v1, v2, v3, etc.) to support new features, but has to continue to maintain the old APIs for backwards compatibility, leading to lots of extra code and a huge maintenance burden.

Like winapi with its ...Ex and numbered functions (NdrClientCall4).

Re: Remembering Larry Finger, who made Linux wireless work

#56

Post by [deleted] »

nradov wrote: post #54
ak217 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Linux kernel has an incredibly strong userspace API stability guarantee. I think in practice this guarantee is unmatched in modern computing, and it's what allows things like containers to deliver such incredible long term value. Software is defined by its interfaces, and unlike userspace APIs, this guarantee does not apply to internal kernel APIs. The ability to update the latter is what enables the former. Inab…

Is there some reason that the Linux kernel couldn't offer a stable API for device drivers? At least for common types of devices. Would that really lead to ossification? Stable APIs usually make it easier to change code at lower levels.

[deleted]

Re: Remembering Larry Finger, who made Linux wireless work

#57

Post by matheusmoreira »

> Broadcom provided no code for its gear

> so Finger helped reverse-engineer the necessary specs by manually dumping and reading hardware registers

I really wanted to leave this quote here for all to see. The badassery of this act should not be underestimated.

I've done a little bit of work along those lines. Reverse engineering my laptop's features, writing my own free software to drive them from inside Linux, emailing the manufacturer asking for documentation and receiving user help pages. It was mostly USB stuff, the most well documented interface imaginable, and it was still hard. I simply cannot fathom how he reverse engineered this Wi-Fi stuff. That's just a huge inspiration for me, I hope I can get near his level some day.

Thank you so much for your work and RIP.

Re: Remembering Larry Finger, who made Linux wireless work

#58

Post by mschuster91 »

nradov wrote: post #54
ak217 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Linux kernel has an incredibly strong userspace API stability guarantee. I think in practice this guarantee is unmatched in modern computing, and it's what allows things like containers to deliver such incredible long term value. Software is defined by its interfaces, and unlike userspace APIs, this guarantee does not apply to internal kernel APIs. The ability to update the latter is what enables the former. Inab…

Is there some reason that the Linux kernel couldn't offer a stable API for device drivers? At least for common types of devices. Would that really lead to ossification? Stable APIs usually make it easier to change code at lower levels.

> Is there some reason that the Linux kernel couldn't offer a stable API for device drivers?

Politics. Offering a stable-ish internal API would instantly lead to hardware vendors shipping closed source drivers for Linux.

Currently, you have to be the size of NVIDIA or AMD to be able to afford a closed source driver, it's simply a huge work to keep up with the constant improvements in the Linux kernel.

Re: Remembering Larry Finger, who made Linux wireless work

#59

Post by refulgentis »

nanna wrote: post #33
maCDzP wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what makes me come to HN every single day.

This is what makes me come here every single minute my anti-procastination setting allows me to.

This is what makes me delete my anti-procrastination setting and quit my job to spend more time here.

Re: Remembering Larry Finger, who made Linux wireless work

#60

Post by exe34 »

Aerbil313 wrote: post #46
exe34 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

virtual machines exist, and it might be easier to run something in them than to port them every two years.

I'm talking about innovation and progress. In an ideal world retro computing remains a hobby.

in my ideal world, innovation and progress means new software brings new functionality - not half the old functionality that barely works because "rewrite".
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