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Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

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Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're also eminently readable, which (to me) shows the massive skill of whoever writes these. The fact that I, a layman, can easily understand them speaks to the quality of the writing.

Or to how unexceptionally average most of the judges actually are. If you're willing to entertain these are skilled brilliant jurists with some kind of mystical levels of elucidation, maybe they're actually just people who failed upward into a job with a fancy robe

The difficulty of understanding a text isn't proportional to how skilled the person is at their job (I think it's inversely proportional, if anything), but to how familiar a field is.

It doesn't take a good developer to describe a system in a way that nobody can understand it. It does take a great one to describe a system in a way that a layman can understand it.

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, my question is about how people judge our opioid status quo: a medical system that prescribes addictive opioids for routine and low-grade pain.

I just wonder why random people would know better about this than your highly educated providers. Go ahead and ask. You can say those exact words. They will give better answers! If you want a poll, this court case was a poll. A majority of victims who had ample time to participate in litigation agreed to the settlement terms. They told you that addiction is bad, the new Purdue would help, and that money from its owne…

its easier to ask random people from home then go to a provider when I have no such problem or need to physically introduce myself to a highly educated provider. it's like a google search.

What I wonder is why someone like you wouldn't know this?

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#473
post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a loss of ~1/2 of their net worth. That's significant. They are now likely to pay much less by settling smaller individual cases, which will take significantly longer and cost claimants significantly more to pursue. When they die (which will be soon, most of them are 75+) it'll become even more difficult to get anything. The deal that was overruled was certainly not justice, but reality will likely be worse. The…

> They are now likely to pay much less... So then why did they choose to settle? That makes no sense. The only reason a defendant settles is to minimize potential losses.

predictably of asset distribution, the end of a long campaign of bad pr, and government pressure (which is now fairly deflated)

the settlement was also in the interest of the government, which may now end up with tens of thousands of separate suits to manage and $6bn less to help manage the crisis unfolding in the meantime

don't get me wrong, the sacklers could end up worse off... but it's a big if and will take much much longer

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#474
post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listen, we can't spend like we did going after Julian Assange on this. It's just business people doing business.

El Chapo is crying.

El Chapo was free to form a corporation and then create an indemnification agreement between that company and himself. That he chose not to is on him.

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I edited my first comment to clarify and nothing else and YOU commented on that. We can throw dictionaries on each other however we want for me it still stands as long as you have agency over yourself nobody can force you to do anything. If they take away your agency we can talk about your arguments. But looking at your last comment you are not arguing in good faith so the discussion is over me.

>I edited my first comment to clarify and nothing else You edited "No, words have meanings" to "No, words have specific meanings that should accurately reflect the nuances of the situation at hand." You also edited "So?" (single word) to 'So? "Force to trust" like op wrote made absolutely no sense.' >for me it still stands as long as you have agency over yourself nobody can force you to do anything. It can and often…

Both edits are for clarity and don't change the meaning of the comments... and both edits are not in our comment chain. You seem to have another agenda here and I really won't entertain it anymore. We have different views of what force means. One is rather clear and the other one is nitpicking to get an agenda across. Nobody forced anyone to get vaccinated and nobody forced anyone to blindly trust medical professionals. There are billions of people who didn't get vaccinated. You might want it to be but it's not the reality we live in.

Reality is what doesn't change if you stop believing in it.

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#476
post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes of course there are realistic ways to prescribe opioids routine and safely. Purdue did not invent opioids, what they did is patent a particularly strong formulation, and then work to undermine the cultural taboo in medicine around their use. That last thing was their crime. There isn't, at this time, any other way to treat serious pain (in all cases). Opioid prescriptions will continue to be an unfortunately nece…

Thank you for the reply! I am honestly not informed about this stuff and not asking to covertly push an agenda. Follow-up Q for you. What is the realistic way to prescribe opioids routinely and safely? Are there certain formulations that have been or should be removed from the market? How do we reinstate the taboo on prescribing them? For EG: I got a vasectomy recently and was told to expect a day or two of pain. I w…

np,

> Follow-up Q for you. What is the realistic way to prescribe opioids routinely and safely?

The simple answer is "less and with better monitoring". The first half of that was the equilibrium that Purdue intentionally shifted in the medical establishment. The cascading effects of that are what caused the modern day opioid crisis. Unfortunately, the modern-day opioid crisis as I understand it is mostly no longer related to pharmaceutical availability. So, while we should improve and lock down that supply chain route, unfortunately I don't expect it to make a large dent in the overall problem.

> Are there certain formulations that have been or should be removed from the market?

Take-home fentanyl is probably unnecessary, but again, I wouldn't really expect this to be a silver bullet. The DEA/FDA has gotten much tighter on their prescribing rules for powerful opioids, but their doing so has largely coincided with the expansion of the illegal heroin, and then fentanyl markets. It is now too late to fix by choking off supply, because the market has mostly moved outside of the regulatory regime (though we should still do that, to the extent we can).

> How do we reinstate the taboo on prescribing them?

These answers keep getting worse but we largely already have. We could probably do more, but if you are an MD and you are not "opioids are dangerous actually"-pilled, I think you need to go back to medical school. There was a short period in the mid 2000s where doctors were convinced otherwise by Purdue among others. Doctors who "think otherwise" today are almost without exception just outright criminals.

> For EG: I got a vasectomy recently and was told to expect a day or two of pain. I was prescribed a month's supply of opioids without a single comment from the doctor on their addictive nature. My understanding is that this is how people get introduced to opioids; the pathway goes "legal scrip -> addiction -> illegal supply -> fentanyl -> death" and that's the engine of the epidemic.

Overprescription like that (which that definitely is) is bad and unfortunately common. It's hard to say exactly how much addiction is caused by that variety, though. Most serious opioid addictions that I am aware of didn't get that way from a one time moderate overprescription of things like Vicodin or Percocet. It is possible to get "mildly" addicted from a month's supply of that and when you run out you might have a slightly unpleasant day or two, but not worse than that. If the illicit market wasn't there, that 30 day supply would be the end of any binge, and that would be "mostly fine", as such. That is not an endorsement or to say that it is at all a safe thing to do, but the risk comes primarily from not wanting to quit when you run out, and having other options available.

Two things changed with the introduction of Oxycontin:

1. It started being prescribed for chronic, not acute pain. This meant that people had permanent, ongoing prescriptions for them. Which meant that people built up a very large tolerance, which led to..

2. Oxycontin is pure oxycodone, it is not formulated with an NSAID (like Percocet is). The presence of an NSAID limits the amount you can take before you get sick, and prevents you from (straightforwardly) consuming it via non-oral routes of administration, which is exponentially more addictive.

> Should it be legal for the doctor to prescribe pain meds like this? (Or, should it be legal but discouraged? Is there a well-understood way to do this?) If it should be legal, should we expect the epidemic to continue? And if so, is post-bankruptcy Purdue a good thing or a bad thing?

Legal but discouraged, definitely. They are an important tool in the treatment of acute pain. They can, more rarely, be an important tool in the treatment of chronic pain (cancer / chemotherapy being a good example of a sufficiently serious condition). And finally, they are absolutely worthwhile for palliative care. For these reasons and what is now the magnitude of the illicit market, I don't think there is a lot of value in a total restriction.

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#477
post #427

Pound for pound, the Sacklers probably did more damage to America than any other drug dealers in history. More damage than any serial killer or mass shooter. In my mind they should be considered public enemies 1 through N. I sincerely hope they face civil and criminal liabilities for what they’ve done.

Don't forget McKinsey: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/03/business/mckinsey-opioids...

I mean they were just leveraging synergies between drug company and drug regulator.

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or to how unexceptionally average most of the judges actually are. If you're willing to entertain these are skilled brilliant jurists with some kind of mystical levels of elucidation, maybe they're actually just people who failed upward into a job with a fancy robe

The difficulty of understanding a text isn't proportional to how skilled the person is at their job (I think it's inversely proportional, if anything), but to how familiar a field is. It doesn't take a good developer to describe a system in a way that nobody can understand it. It does take a great one to describe a system in a way that a layman can understand it.

If you've been around the valley long enough to hear pitches, you've surely met some remarkable bullshitters who can convincingly describe with clarity and crispness something that is actually nonsense and simply is not real.

There's a group of attorneys that host a podcast on SCOTUS that present a pretty convincing case for this interpretation, at least to me. Here's the most recent episode

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/5-4/id1497785843?i=100...

or

https://player.fm/series/series-2622019/garland-v-cargill

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#479

I understand people who think the Sacklers are villains who destroyed lives, Purdue should be shut down, and we should transform the legal regime around opioids. I understand people who think Purdue should continue, the status quo is OK, and the Sacklers are not [simply] villainous. I don't understand people who think the Sacklers are villains who destroyed lives, but Purdue should continue operating more-or-less as-…

I think there's a misunderstanding in what the settlement is about. As part of Purdue's bankruptcy, the Sackler family is voluntarily providing 6 billion dollars to help settle claims opioid victims have brought against Purdue Pharma. As a condition to provide the 6 billion dollars, the Sackler family has asked the bankruptcy judge to not even allow any new suits against the Sacklers related to the Opioid epidemic. T…

This is an excellent ELI5 explainer, thanks.

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#480

Pound for pound, the Sacklers probably did more damage to America than any other drug dealers in history. More damage than any serial killer or mass shooter. In my mind they should be considered public enemies 1 through N. I sincerely hope they face civil and criminal liabilities for what they’ve done.

I’d argue it’s the opposite. Look at what’s happened since Oxycontin was heavily regulated. Opioid deaths in America have exploded by an order of magnitude. There’s a direct correlation between higher regulation of OxyContin and opioid deaths in the U.S. The Sacklers have done illegal stuff. Misrepresenting the addictiveness of their drugs (well, it was immoral and wrong…it’s not clear how illegal it was). But it’s q…

As someone who deals with chronic pain, I watched this situation develop: people lost access to their “safer” opioid and switch to whichever one they can get. Or suicide; there were many suicides around this time.

Thankfully opioids have never been an appropriate treatment for my pain so I didn’t have to deal with this, but I feel real empathy for the people who switched to street drugs at that time. OD is a risk but considering how consuming pain is many would probably rather be dead than experience that anyway. This is not hyperbole, on pain forums people talk about assisted suicide all the time.

We failed pain patients across the board.

It took 6 or 7 years for us even start to find therapies that work. To this day doctors have just shoveled handfuls of Gabapentin and muscle relaxers down our throats or sent us for very invasive and painful nerve blocks which both have a high complication rate and need to be repeated as frequently as every three months.

Or told us to get more exercise. I’ve always loved that one! I’ve been improving my fitness for three years, but advancement is very slow because if I go too fast it can trigger pain and be a huge setback.

Fuck the Sacklers, but fuck whoever decided that pain patients don’t deserve opioids at a rate of 100x. As is always our policy with the disabled in America, our suffering doesn’t matter anywhere near as much as the political moralization that gets people in office

Ok, I’ll get off my soapbox. This topic makes me so angry.

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