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Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

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401–410 of 691 posts

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#401

I understand people who think the Sacklers are villains who destroyed lives, Purdue should be shut down, and we should transform the legal regime around opioids. I understand people who think Purdue should continue, the status quo is OK, and the Sacklers are not [simply] villainous. I don't understand people who think the Sacklers are villains who destroyed lives, but Purdue should continue operating more-or-less as-…

I think there's a misunderstanding in what the settlement is about. As part of Purdue's bankruptcy, the Sackler family is voluntarily providing 6 billion dollars to help settle claims opioid victims have brought against Purdue Pharma. As a condition to provide the 6 billion dollars, the Sackler family has asked the bankruptcy judge to not even allow any new suits against the Sacklers related to the Opioid epidemic. T…

My question is not about the settlement; it's a question about moral judgements people have around Sacklers/Purdue, including judgements I see on this comment page. I already understand the mechanical details you've explained and they don't answer my question.

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#402

Pound for pound, the Sacklers probably did more damage to America than any other drug dealers in history. More damage than any serial killer or mass shooter. In my mind they should be considered public enemies 1 through N. I sincerely hope they face civil and criminal liabilities for what they’ve done.

You're really underselling it if anything. Over a million Americans have died so far in the opioid epidemic. That more than any of their wars, including their civil war.

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#403
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you have recovered without pain killers? Or maybe used a pain killer that is much weaker that doesn't kill all the pain but is much safer like marijuana? Are there scientific studies that shows that opioids help patients recover quicker?

Why is this question important? The primary purpose of pain medication is not to facilitate recovery, but to reduce suffering and increase quality of life.

Exactly! Opioids increase suffering and ruin the quality of life for hundreds of thousands of Americans. 80k+ yearly overdose deaths, plus a percentage of those using opioids for recovery become addicted to it.

Is that a worthy tradeoff? I presume (could be wrong) but we did fine recovering with surgical operations 80 years ago without opioids.

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#404

I understand people who think the Sacklers are villains who destroyed lives, Purdue should be shut down, and we should transform the legal regime around opioids. I understand people who think Purdue should continue, the status quo is OK, and the Sacklers are not [simply] villainous. I don't understand people who think the Sacklers are villains who destroyed lives, but Purdue should continue operating more-or-less as-…

I mean I have been prescribed opioids many times and I just take them as prescribed and they help the pain of the surgery or whatever. I don’t even take the whole bottle. What will replace the opioids if we don’t allow them to be prescribed?

Ibuprofen, paracetamol, rest?

From https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/27/opinion/sunday/surgery-ge...: if you "no longer feel the pain you will no longer know what your body is telling you. You might overexert yourself because you are no longer feeling the pain signals".

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#405
post #389

I understand people who think the Sacklers are villains who destroyed lives, Purdue should be shut down, and we should transform the legal regime around opioids. I understand people who think Purdue should continue, the status quo is OK, and the Sacklers are not [simply] villainous. I don't understand people who think the Sacklers are villains who destroyed lives, but Purdue should continue operating more-or-less as-…

Yes of course there are realistic ways to prescribe opioids routine and safely. Purdue did not invent opioids, what they did is patent a particularly strong formulation, and then work to undermine the cultural taboo in medicine around their use. That last thing was their crime. There isn't, at this time, any other way to treat serious pain (in all cases). Opioid prescriptions will continue to be an unfortunately nece…

> That last thing was their crime

Taboos are bullshit. Either something is a clearly articulated, written, rule with an enforcement mechanism, or it's fair game.

Prescribing doctors are responsible for the opioid epidemic. Doctors failed in their duty of care to patients. Doctors massively overprescribed, failed to track their patient's medication usage, and failed to spot addictive behaviour. Why aren't we holding them responsible? Simply because that's hard to do?

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#406
post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is this question important? The primary purpose of pain medication is not to facilitate recovery, but to reduce suffering and increase quality of life.

Exactly! Opioids increase suffering and ruin the quality of life for hundreds of thousands of Americans. 80k+ yearly overdose deaths, plus a percentage of those using opioids for recovery become addicted to it. Is that a worthy tradeoff? I presume (could be wrong) but we did fine recovering with surgical operations 80 years ago without opioids.

Most countries do without them now and have always done without them except in special cases such as palliative cures. You get opioids during recovery in the hospital, but not once you're discharged. You might get codeine rarely, but that's it.

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#407
Fraudulent Transfer...

From Reddit...

Piercing the corporate veil would mean disregarding the corporate form entirely. It usually comes up when the owner-manager of a company fails to distinguish the corporation as a separate entity with its own purpose and finances, using the company as a personal piggie bank or otherwise going about life as usual and not going through the motions required of corporations under the law.

What plaintiffs have alleged against the Sacklers is different, and specific to bankruptcy. Perdue is out of money and is bankrupt, mostly because it caused billions of dollars of damages to hundreds of thousands of people and to the states (which now have to clean up the opioid mess). But not that long before it went bankrupt, it was swimming in money. Perdue didn't use those profits to avoid harming people. Nor did it keep the money on hand to pay potential tort claims from the people it was harming. Instead, Perdue's officers and board of directors (that is, the Sacklers) approved dividends of billions of dollars to be paid to the company's shareholders (that is, again, the Sacklers).

The plaintiffs in various lawsuits have alleged that the Sacklers knew that the profits were temporary and the bill would come due, so they purposefully got the money out of the company while the getting was good. More technically: it is alleged that Perdue's owners received assets that were transferred from Purdue with actual intent to hinder, delay, or defraud creditors.

One thing you absolutely are not allowed to do is use your company to rack up a bunch of debt or liability, take all the assets out of the company, and then declare bankruptcy and expect to get to keep the money. We call that "fraudulent transfer," and if a court finds that you did fraudulent transfers from your company to your personal bank account you will be ordered to pay that money back to the company (so it can use that money to pay back its creditors and other claimants). The company still exists, it's a distinct legal person (so not technically piercing the veil), you just took the company's money as if it were a profit when you knew full well the company couldn't afford to pay out profits.

One big difference between the concepts is this: If Perdue's corporate veil were pierced, the Sacklers would be personally on the hook for all the harm their company caused -- they could lose their bank accounts, vacation homes, nice cars, artwork, everything, as if they themselves (rather than "Perdue") had been the ones going around knowingly fueling a drug addiction crisis. Whereas if they merely engaged in fraulent transfer of assets, the Sacklers are only on the hook to give back what they fraudulently took from the company during the period it can be proven that they knew of the looming liability -- limited to the statute of limitations, which I think is around 6 years. So all the money they made before that, and all the money they have from non-fraudulent sources, is safe from creditors.

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The justices don't vote on "abortion, environmental protection, etc." They vote on the legal vehicles that have been used to address those things. And views on those legal vehicles map onto judicial philosophies that have nothing to do with the substantive issues. To use an analogy: there's people who think operating systems should be microkernels, and people who think they should be monolithic kernels. Windows NT wa…

[flagged]

I'm trying to convey how legal conservatives think, as someone who is one. I am, on many policy issues, quite liberal. I think rich people should pay more taxes, people should drive EVs, etc. But ultimately I care more about the rules--especially the rules about who makes decisions and where power is allocated--than I do about what people or outcomes. I'd rather see 3C of global warming than administrative agencies operating contrary to the tripartite system of government the Founders designed. I care more about the Constitutional rules for allocating power to states than I do about what citizens of those states might do with that power. Etc.

Issues like abortion and environmental laws just happen to map onto particular legal issues as an accident of history. If state-by-state legislation leads to widely legalized abortion, for example, I don't think most legal conservatives would support a Roe-like judicial decision ginning up a "right to fetal life" (which actually exists in Germany). If Congress passed environmental laws itself, instead of outsourcing it to an executive agency, I don't think most legal conservatives would be looking for ways to second-guess Congress's judgment.

You actually see this in Europe. The legal system in European countries tends to be pretty boring, because they have more social cohesion and can legislate things according to the rules, rather than hacking up the system. The equivalent of Roe, for example, doesn't exist in continental Europe. In an irony, Emmanuel Macron criticized Dobbs when it came down. But France never had anything like Roe. And after Dobbs, France passed a constitutional amendment addressing abortion, which is exactly how legal conservatives would say you should handle the issue!

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#409

Pound for pound, the Sacklers probably did more damage to America than any other drug dealers in history. More damage than any serial killer or mass shooter. In my mind they should be considered public enemies 1 through N. I sincerely hope they face civil and criminal liabilities for what they’ve done.

Maybe, but its more common than this one example and more than what most people can stomach. The real problem is these people are sociopaths, and the next set of sociopaths will do it again. They don't care who they hurt because they lack empathy and if killing people drives up profits then so be it.

If you really want to show concern or right a wrong then find a way to better criminalize violations of accepted ethical norms. The best way to punish sociopaths is to take all their assets, embarrass them in public, and permanently bar them from practicing in the same industry. For example if a lawyer is disbarred they do not get a second chance.

Re: Supreme Court blocks controversial Purdue Pharma opioid settlement

#410
post #129

There will be people like Sacklers until we start putting them away and throwing away the key. We do need to put rich people in jail at least every now and again, if for no other reason than to demonstrate we're not a banana republic.

> We do need to put rich people in jail at least every now and again, if for no other reason than to demonstrate we're not a banana republic. ... you do know that banana republics did this exact thing all of the time?

"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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