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Crypto breakthrough shows Flame was designed by world-class scientists

arstechnica.com

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Re: Crypto breakthrough shows Flame was designed by world-class scientists

#31

Post by TeMPOraL »

0x0 wrote: post #5
kposehn wrote: post #2

"Flame could only have been developed by a wealthy nation-state" While I do agree that it was indeed developed by one, I'm not sure how it could only have been developed by one. Would it truly take massive levels of money to do or simply some smart, determined people?

Presumably, if you are not employed by a three-letter agency, and you manage to invent a breakthrough crypto technique, there's more value in publishing it, than sitting on it until you just blow it all away on one exploit anonymously. At least, you would _hope_ criminal enterprises don't actually have the means to fund and recruit their own secret, cutting-edge math research labs/networks :)

> there's more value in publishing it, than sitting on it until you just blow it all away on one exploit anonymously

Value is a subjective thing. Some people want money and fame, and for them it would be better to publish. But if you want to get rid of Iran's nuclear program because, well, you don't like nukes, or you don't like Iran, or you Just Want To Watch The World Burn, then well...

> At least, you would _hope_ criminal enterprises don't actually have the means to fund and recruit their own secret, cutting-edge math research labs/networks :)

Why not? Big business is big business.

Re: Crypto breakthrough shows Flame was designed by world-class scientists

#32

Post by TeMPOraL »

batista wrote: post #10
munin wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

drug cartels can recruit people to build their own submarines and cell phone networks, so ...

Those submarines are crude, has you seen pictures? And submarines and cell phone networks are pretty standard technologies, well understood, that any competent engineer can build off of off the shelve components. It's not like drug cartels are Dr. No like enterprises...

> And submarines and cell phone networks are pretty standard technologies, well understood,...

But what about, well, drugs? Don't drug cartels employ chemists to refine old drugs and develop "better" ones?

Re: Crypto breakthrough shows Flame was designed by world-class scientists

#33

Post by batista »

planetguy wrote: post #13
batista wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smart determined people don't come for cheap, and you don't get world class cryptanalysts and mathematicians working on such a specific endeavor out of "determination". Plus, we can all guess what wealthy nation-state developed the software and similar things in the past, let's not be hypocritical here...

Would one smart, determined person, working in his spare time and for his own satisfaction, be capable of doing it? I mean, if I had the capability to screw up Iran's nuclear program in my spare time I probably would, because, y'know, fuck Iran.

>I mean, if I had the capability to screw up Iran's nuclear program in my spare time I probably would, because, y'know, fuck Iran.

Fuck Iran why exactly? Because toppling their democratically elected government and establishing a puppet in the fifties wasn't enough? Or arming Saddam's Iraq to fight them in the eighties?

Or maybe because, say, TX can execute 15 year old "criminals" and ban abortion and/or gay marriage, but Iranians don't get to decide how they want to live? Or maybe because what's OK for Saudi Arabia is not OK for everybody?

Or is it because they haven't harmed anyone in the region, where other nations have already invaded 2 nearby countries?

Or just because, you know, muslims are bad in general? (I don't like the religion myself, but they have the right to do as they damn please in their OWN country).

Re: Crypto breakthrough shows Flame was designed by world-class scientists

#34

Post by dfc »

DanielRibeiro wrote: post #27

Well, MD5 attacks are actually quite old news[1,2,3,4]. There even are some open source projects to help you find them[5]. Would love to hear more details on what was the breakthrough that Flame introduced. Edit: The breakthrough that Flame introduced can be read here[8, 9] SHA-1 is not yet broken , as MD5 is, but fortunately we are having the SHA-3[6] competition (like we had for AES[7]). [1] http://www.springerlink…

Did you read the article or the mailing list threads? This attack is hardly old news.

Re: Crypto breakthrough shows Flame was designed by world-class scientists

#35

Post by huhtenberg »

pjscott wrote: post #28
fleitz wrote: post #19

Hmm... if only there was some sort of National Security Agency that employed cryptographers so we'd know about these things first and could protect us from these attacks.

Who says they didn't know? The attack was non-destructive and primarily targeted at Iran, which is something the NSA is probably not too upset about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_(malware)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm ;)

Re: Crypto breakthrough shows Flame was designed by world-class scientists

#36

Post by dfc »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #32
batista wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those submarines are crude, has you seen pictures? And submarines and cell phone networks are pretty standard technologies, well understood, that any competent engineer can build off of off the shelve components. It's not like drug cartels are Dr. No like enterprises...

> And submarines and cell phone networks are pretty standard technologies, well understood,... But what about, well, drugs? Don't drug cartels employ chemists to refine old drugs and develop "better" ones?

Are you comparing developing Flame to cooking meth or freebasing coke?

Re: Crypto breakthrough shows Flame was designed by world-class scientists

#37

Post by dfc »

bcrescimanno wrote: post #24
kposehn wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was basically my thinking. The purpose of Flame seems to be clear intelligence gathering, so most likely it is a state actor that wanted it; I wonder however if it was indeed developed by a state or a private group on behalf of a state. Plausible deniability is useful after all.

Absolutely. I have very little doubt that it was indeed a nation-state who developed it; but, my main issue is with the distinction of it being a "wealthy" one. Couldn't Flame, perhaps, have been developed by Iran and released on themselves as a means for drumming up anti-Israeli or anti-American sentiment? I realize something like that is totally conjecture; but, I don't see it as any further conjecture than, "it mu…

If Iran developed Flame you think they would chose to use it as a PR stunt over using it for intelligence gathering. From what I understand Iran is more interested in developing nukes than generating bad press for US/Israel.

Re: Crypto breakthrough shows Flame was designed by world-class scientists

#38

Post by wkw3 »

bcrescimanno wrote: post #24
kposehn wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was basically my thinking. The purpose of Flame seems to be clear intelligence gathering, so most likely it is a state actor that wanted it; I wonder however if it was indeed developed by a state or a private group on behalf of a state. Plausible deniability is useful after all.

Absolutely. I have very little doubt that it was indeed a nation-state who developed it; but, my main issue is with the distinction of it being a "wealthy" one. Couldn't Flame, perhaps, have been developed by Iran and released on themselves as a means for drumming up anti-Israeli or anti-American sentiment? I realize something like that is totally conjecture; but, I don't see it as any further conjecture than, "it mu…

Considering that the New York Times this week published a leak from within the administration admitting responsibility for Stuxnet and Duqu, both of which targeted Iran, do you honestly believe that Iran developing Flame as a false flag operation is equally credible?

Re: Crypto breakthrough shows Flame was designed by world-class scientists

#39

Post by [deleted] »

dfc wrote: post #34
DanielRibeiro wrote: post #27

Well, MD5 attacks are actually quite old news[1,2,3,4]. There even are some open source projects to help you find them[5]. Would love to hear more details on what was the breakthrough that Flame introduced. Edit: The breakthrough that Flame introduced can be read here[8, 9] SHA-1 is not yet broken , as MD5 is, but fortunately we are having the SHA-3[6] competition (like we had for AES[7]). [1] http://www.springerlink…

Did you read the article or the mailing list threads? This attack is hardly old news.

[deleted]

Re: Crypto breakthrough shows Flame was designed by world-class scientists

#40

Post by archgoon »

johnlepson wrote: post #20
josephagoss wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its actually a shame, in the pursuit of blaming the USA and/or Israel people lose common sense. Look, It seems that it was certainly USA/Israel, but throwing common sense out the window just so we can make this point is not a good idea. What these people are saying, essentially is that very few countries have lots of smart people in different industry's, which is wrong. The zero days can come from all over, the PLC a…

...but the US is not a nation-state.

You have repeated this multiple times on this thread. Would you like to explain what you mean?
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