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Next gen 3D metal printing

fabric8labs.com

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Re: Next gen 3D metal printing

#41

Post by kragen »

i wrote some notes about this technique in 02016 https://dercuano.github.io/notes/electrodeposition-3d-printi... and published it in 02019; possibly people who find the process interesting will find it appealing. it isn't original with me, though; another guy here in argentina built a working 3-d printer with this approach, i think before i wrote that, and petermcneeley points out that successful application of the technique on the nanoscale goes back to at least 01996 https://people.ece.ubc.ca/mm/papers/Madden_JMES_1996.pdf (a paper i'd seen many years ago but forgotten) and that he himself had gotten it to work about 15 years ago https://darkcephas.github.io/MELED_paper/MELED_paper.pdf

derctuo and dernocua also contain some explorations of it

derctuo contains my notes from 02020, published in 02020, including three that discuss this process: https://derctuo.github.io/notes/electrodeposition-3d-printin... https://derctuo.github.io/notes/foam-electro-etching.html https://derctuo.github.io/notes/cyclic-fabrication-systems.h...

in dernocua, my notes from 02021, published in 02021, https://dernocua.github.io/notes/fresnel-mirror-electropolis... discusses using it to make optics, https://dernocua.github.io/notes/freezer-seacrete.html discusses using it to deposit rock rather than metal (much faster), https://dernocua.github.io/notes/layers-plus-electroforming.... discusses a process hybridized with lamination of 2-D cut layers to get the rough form, and https://dernocua.github.io/notes/electrolytic-berlinite.html discusses the possibility of using it to print refractory chemically bonded ceramics

Re: Next gen 3D metal printing

#42

Post by kragen »

kbenson wrote: post #4

My understanding is that most current metal 3d printing yields items with significantly worse properties with respect to shear forces, because of how the molecules align compared to when it's melted together as a whole and cooled (or something like that, I can't find the research paper someone linked to me in the past here regarding that). Do we know if this is better with respect to that?

it's possible to electrodeposit metals with a variety of grain structures, including both strained and non-strained versions. strain is the main problem with processes like sls/slm

Re: Next gen 3D metal printing

#43

Post by kragen »

glitchinc wrote: post #33

What distinguishes the offerings from Fabric8Labs from the offerings from long-established companies like Desktop Metal[1] that are capable of printing parts using a wide range of materials including carbon steel, stainless steel, titanium, and tungsten? The tungsten capability really throws me for a loop. As someone who TIG welds in my spare time, I can’t imagine having a machine in my shop that could make electrode…

in general electrolytic processes are very energy-intensive, and i'm sure fabric8labs's process is no exception

Re: Next gen 3D metal printing

#44

Post by kragen »

petermcneeley wrote: post #22
ben_w wrote: post #3

Good to see! This looks like something I toyed with in 2016, but (as you may expect from my lack of relevant experience and qualifications) all I found were what Edison called "ways to not make a lightbulb". The: > microelectrode array printhead in particular is what I wanted to experiment with, because something like this clearly allows parallelisation of the build process in much the same way photopolymerisation is…

I tried out the multi electrode approach about 15 years ago. My work was based on the original work of John D. Madden https://people.ece.ubc.ca/mm/papers/Madden_JMES_1996.pdf I can find my paper and post it but keep in mind it was a "undergraduate thesis" and something I spent only a very finite amount of time on.

i'd forgotten all about madden's work! thanks for this!

how did your project go?

Re: Next gen 3D metal printing

#45

Post by metal_am »

xnx wrote: post #12
kbenson wrote: post #4

My understanding is that most current metal 3d printing yields items with significantly worse properties with respect to shear forces, because of how the molecules align compared to when it's melted together as a whole and cooled (or something like that, I can't find the research paper someone linked to me in the past here regarding that). Do we know if this is better with respect to that?

Would there still be a benefit to rapidly producing metal molds/forms for other materials?

Absolutely. Printed molds and forging dies with conformal cooling channels can decrease cycle times.

Re: Next gen 3D metal printing

#46

Post by FrostKiwi »

kbenson wrote: post #4

My understanding is that most current metal 3d printing yields items with significantly worse properties with respect to shear forces, because of how the molecules align compared to when it's melted together as a whole and cooled (or something like that, I can't find the research paper someone linked to me in the past here regarding that). Do we know if this is better with respect to that?

There are so many ways to do metal 3D printing, that it really depends on technique and use-case. I can only comment on SLM (Powder is in a bed, melted by laser from above) and DED (Powder comes from a nozzle and melted by a laser from above), but you can easily move the resulting metal properties in very different directions, by adjusting an unending list of parameters. So many things happen can once when melting metal (hardening, tempering, martensitization), that you can make the result "properties with respect to shear" better or worse by tweaking the process.

Finding these parameters is a research field in of it itself and whether or not properties are better or worse in "most current metal 3d printing" really depends on your use-case and material. There is no blanket statement on how the material properties will be after these processes.

Re: Next gen 3D metal printing

#47

Post by petermcneeley »

kragen wrote: post #44
petermcneeley wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried out the multi electrode approach about 15 years ago. My work was based on the original work of John D. Madden https://people.ece.ubc.ca/mm/papers/Madden_JMES_1996.pdf I can find my paper and post it but keep in mind it was a "undergraduate thesis" and something I spent only a very finite amount of time on.

i'd forgotten all about madden's work! thanks for this! how did your project go?

I actually got to meet Madden multiple times and he even gave me access to his lab. My physics profs were very impressed by my project but I was disappointed. This electro deposition effect is a bit like lightning and didnt work well with my theories about trying to use a multielectrode head with different voltages to produce a shaped potential.

Re: Next gen 3D metal printing

#48

Post by kragen »

petermcneeley wrote: post #47
kragen wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'd forgotten all about madden's work! thanks for this! how did your project go?

I actually got to meet Madden multiple times and he even gave me access to his lab. My physics profs were very impressed by my project but I was disappointed. This electro deposition effect is a bit like lightning and didnt work well with my theories about trying to use a multielectrode head with different voltages to produce a shaped potential.

yeah, i've been thinking about that too. how did you model the field?

Re: Next gen 3D metal printing

#49

Post by petermcneeley »

jimbooonooo wrote: post #34
petermcneeley wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried out the multi electrode approach about 15 years ago. My work was based on the original work of John D. Madden https://people.ece.ubc.ca/mm/papers/Madden_JMES_1996.pdf I can find my paper and post it but keep in mind it was a "undergraduate thesis" and something I spent only a very finite amount of time on.

Yah, please post it! Can you speak to the minimum resolution and wear rate/lifetime with single electrode approaches?

I would imagine resolution mostly comes down size of electrode and how close you can get that to the substrate and grow the deposit in a controlled fashion. Mine were 25um. As for wearing out the electrode; madden's paper probably has some information. I would expect the wear to be similar to the oxygen side of electrolysis (water).

https://darkcephas.github.io/MELED_paper/MELED_paper.pdf

Re: Next gen 3D metal printing

#50

Post by FrostKiwi »

tbenst wrote: post #37
glitchinc wrote: post #33

What distinguishes the offerings from Fabric8Labs from the offerings from long-established companies like Desktop Metal[1] that are capable of printing parts using a wide range of materials including carbon steel, stainless steel, titanium, and tungsten? The tungsten capability really throws me for a loop. As someone who TIG welds in my spare time, I can’t imagine having a machine in my shop that could make electrode…

Fabric8Labs can print 100% density, whereas Desktop Metal is highly porous. Also Fabric8Labs can directly print pure copper, which has historically been very difficult. The process is also more energy efficient and better suited for small complex parts. Desktop Metal serves a different market in terms of material and size. disclaimer: I'm a GP at Asimov Ventures and invested in Fabric8labs' pre-seed round.

Super interesting approach.

> "directly print pure copper, which has historically been very difficult"

SLM [1] has been able to 3D print Copper with precision down to the size of a mechanical pencil's lead for a long time already. In what way is ECAM better? Is it more precision + no need to handle powder + no need for laser source and containment - ECAM being slower, or am I missing some crucial feature?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_laser_melting

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