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Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

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Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#351

Post by kmeisthax »

jad wrote: post #297
adam_arthur wrote: post #281

Government should just require open communication protocols/file formats, if a competitor is willing to host the same data at cost. Client applications should compete on their individual merits, not coast on protocol lock-in. Would WhatsApp or YouTube have as many users if others could build clients for the same data? (PII etc notwithstanding) Protocols compete on the merits of the protocol, clients compete on the me…

Companies can iterate on their products much faster if they're not required to publish all of their functionality as public APIs. Once the APIs have been published, it's much harder for them to be changed. Doing this also puts them at the mercy of whether or not client applications are willing to support their new functionality. Maybe YouTube wants clients to adopt some feature, but a powerful client application does…

"Public API" doesn't mean you can't change the API, nor does it limit how quickly extensions or new versions can be added to that API. It just means you have to actually inform people of what you're changing and when.

If a client application refuses to implement functionality, that's on them, not the original developer. If I want the new feature, I'll switch.

These days however, new features nowadays are usually things I don't want. Not strictly outright anti-features, but usually completely pointless "Bob needs a bonus[0]" changes that lets a middle manager put something good in their promo packet. The whole reason why people want compatible file formats and third-party clients is specifically so we can dictate to the originator of those formats and protocols how and how fast they can iterate on their products and limit how bad they can deliberately make them to increase profits.

[0] https://youtu.be/ssob-7sGVWs?t=2748

Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#352

Post by appstorelottery »

adam_arthur wrote: post #281

Government should just require open communication protocols/file formats, if a competitor is willing to host the same data at cost. Client applications should compete on their individual merits, not coast on protocol lock-in. Would WhatsApp or YouTube have as many users if others could build clients for the same data? (PII etc notwithstanding) Protocols compete on the merits of the protocol, clients compete on the me…

Communication protocols and file formats IMHO.

Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#353

Post by rockooooo »

nickff wrote: post #237
rockooooo wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It shouldn't be! Forcing big companies to unbundle product pricing would give new entrants to the market a fighting change at success.

Should they have to un-bundle Windows Explorer, Notepad, Photo Viewer, Control Panel, and all the other utilities as well, under the same logic? If not, why?

1) technically? yes, absolutely- apps like explorer or photo viewer should only use public APIs so other companies can make comparable apps on the OS with 90% market share 2) these are all OS utilities, not workplace apps - there's a big difference between Adobe/Microsoft Office/Google bundling their apps where there's a very clear, very powerful disincentive to compete vs something like explorer.

Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#354

Post by Waterluvian »

adam_arthur wrote: post #325
jad wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies can iterate on their products much faster if they're not required to publish all of their functionality as public APIs. Once the APIs have been published, it's much harder for them to be changed. Doing this also puts them at the mercy of whether or not client applications are willing to support their new functionality. Maybe YouTube wants clients to adopt some feature, but a powerful client application does…

The company doesn't need to expose custom APIs on their data. If they implement a chat protocol, they must allow other clients to interface with it. For the data side, likely any requirements wouldn't go into effect until a dataset is deemed sufficiently large/societally important, and there could be a period of exclusivity similarly to the patent system to encourage innovation. This system works very well for new dr…

It’s going to be hard to actually draw a line on what ought to be public.

If I make a multiplayer video game and it has a chat feature, do I have to expose that?

Opinions and feelings won’t cut it: what’s the prescriptive rule to know?

Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#356

Post by isk517 »

Neil44 wrote: post #26

They don't just bundle it, they make it auto-start on screen on Windows machines whether you've got an account or not.

Microsoft could easily avoid a lot of legal hassle and earn a lot of goodwill if they just offered a version of Windows with nothing but the most basic stuff pre-installed. Hell, just go the typical/custom install that a most other programs have during the initial start up, most people will just select the option that installs Office and the other crap anyway. The people that don't want it will never use it and current resent that you attempt to force them.

Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#357

Post by Teever »

ThalesX wrote: post #284
Teever wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be sure the goal isn't to get every alternative there, just enough to stop the unfair advantage of bundling and to make a healthier market.

Well, I feel like Nextercould™ is the key to a healthier market and stopping the unfair bundling of Nextcloud with major OS releases.

Well pass that info along to the regulator who can actually make binding decisions regarding this matter.

Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#358

Post by bionhoward »

Waterluvian wrote: post #354
adam_arthur wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The company doesn't need to expose custom APIs on their data. If they implement a chat protocol, they must allow other clients to interface with it. For the data side, likely any requirements wouldn't go into effect until a dataset is deemed sufficiently large/societally important, and there could be a period of exclusivity similarly to the patent system to encourage innovation. This system works very well for new dr…

It’s going to be hard to actually draw a line on what ought to be public. If I make a multiplayer video game and it has a chat feature, do I have to expose that? Opinions and feelings won’t cut it: what’s the prescriptive rule to know?

Ask customers

Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#359

Post by programjames »

pompino wrote: post #236
phito wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do Windows users try so hard to keep defending their OS's shitty behaviors? It's always "you can disable it" (but it might come back automatically after an update), and when you can't disable it (one drive), it's "just don't use it".

Why are you so upset that people derive a lot of value from Windows? Enough that they want to keep using it, and defend it because they don't agree with the "everything is broken" meme.

What? You shouldn't defend bad behaviour regardless of if you derive a lot of value from the same source. A good organization wants to be called out on shitty practices so they improve.

Re: Microsoft breached antitrust rules by bundling Teams and Office, EU says

#360

Post by Vespasian »

WheatMillington wrote: post #300
gabeio wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While they offer it they don’t hand it to you for free just because you bought their iCloud storage. The issue here seems to be aimed squarely at slack and the like which have been in-theory pushed out of the market by teams. Of course most of us know that’s unfortunate because if they actually used teams for a little they wouldn’t use it even if it was bundled (probably why MS is trying to stick it everywhere).

I don't understand how bundling Teams has pushed competitors out of the market. If anything it should make competitors more appealing, as they don't require the bundled MS software?

Everybody needs Office. There really is no practical way around it for businesses

Now companies get a "free" (initially) software in addition to what they actually want.

Microsoft can only afford that because they already get Money from their Monopoly product and can finance it that way without the customers having the ability to object (because Office has a market domineering position).

Business chat competitors can not compete against that because no matter how good their product, they cannot force companies to buy it as Microsoft can.

Result: Teams wins because Office won.

That is what they EU is having issues with.

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