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Robots on Lake Michigan beaches to prevent drownings

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Re: Robots on Lake Michigan beaches to prevent drownings

#81
post #62
post #24

If it's $12k and requires an operator this seems more of a band-aid than anything. Where are the operators going to come from? And for a lot of places the operator + device probably pays for 3 lifeguards or swim instructors. Nothing is going to get better until we start trying to get out of the hole and improve the average person's ability to swim and make decisions in open water. I used to be a lifeguard and swim in…

Dartmouth college (USA), had a requirement that you must pass a swimming test to receive your degree. ( Obviously - if you didn't know how, there were free lessons.) They have recently dropped that requirement! ( After more than 200 years.) Why? At least with the old rules, you always knew that if a person was a Dartmouth grad, you could push them in the water. Or, at least, not worry about boating with them.

Williams College (US school similar to Dartmouth in culture but smaller) had the same requirement for over 100 years. It was removed in 2022 largely out of concern that it had "disparate impact" on non-white students. Now those students are free to graduate without the embarrassment of being taught how to prevent themselves from drowning: https://williamsrecord.com/461123/news/faculty-votes-to-scra....

Re: Robots on Lake Michigan beaches to prevent drownings

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of you may drown, but that is a sacrifice I am willing to make!

Literally yes! We have education, signage, warnings, red flags, etc... and yet people still do dumb shit and get themselves killed. Swim at your own risk, as they say.

Frankly, the more you idiot proof things the ‘better’ they make the idiots.

Life is at your own risk, don’t do anything too stupid.

Re: Robots on Lake Michigan beaches to prevent drownings

#83
post #24

If it's $12k and requires an operator this seems more of a band-aid than anything. Where are the operators going to come from? And for a lot of places the operator + device probably pays for 3 lifeguards or swim instructors. Nothing is going to get better until we start trying to get out of the hole and improve the average person's ability to swim and make decisions in open water. I used to be a lifeguard and swim in…

I think we just need to be ok with the fact that people will die. Trying to attain a zero incident or zero death policy is completly unrealistic.

Seattle has a zero traffic deaths by 2030 initiative:

https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs...

Of course, the only way to achieve this is by having zero cars.

Airplanes are designed with a maximum fatality rate in mind, because mandating zero means mandating either infinite cost or zero airplanes.

Re: Robots on Lake Michigan beaches to prevent drownings

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luckily none of the narrative here is about zero drownings. Or more precisely, people will express targeting zero drowning, but they're not making the logical jump you're pointing at. The device in the article is someone pragmatic, lifeguard situation in most places is pragmatic, there would need to be a crazy shift to get people to agree to a more absolute stance.

> Luckily none of the narrative here is about zero drownings. > Or more precisely, people will express targeting zero drowning, but they're not making the logical jump you're pointing at. Um, compare this comment, left hours before yours: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40779917 > Fewer and fewer places to swim, more and more places just made everything a wading pool or a splash park to reduce liability, and aft…

I would never own a swimming pool due to the ginormous sums in liability judgments.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/steilacoom-to-pay-...

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/jury-awards-13-mil...

Re: Robots on Lake Michigan beaches to prevent drownings

#85
post #24

If it's $12k and requires an operator this seems more of a band-aid than anything. Where are the operators going to come from? And for a lot of places the operator + device probably pays for 3 lifeguards or swim instructors. Nothing is going to get better until we start trying to get out of the hole and improve the average person's ability to swim and make decisions in open water. I used to be a lifeguard and swim in…

> things have gotten worse and worse over the last 20 years

My kids and I are trained and experienced in open water and lake swimming. Still, every time we go out, we use one of these:

https://www.google.com/search?q=swim+buoy

I've had the experience of being in a large lake with very high winds. It felt like being in an angry ocean. Having a swim buoy provided for a few opportunities to stop, chill, catch my breath and plan my route.

You have to respect, not fear, water. Fear means you are not rational and likely have no ability to control outcomes or make sensible decisions. What you need if your SCUBA gear malfunctions 75 feet down is to be rational. Anything else can kill you.

When I taught my kids (and a few other people) how to swim, the first skill they had to learn was to be able to float/bob in the middle of the deep end of the pool for one hour. Can't touch the bottom. The only way you are going to do that is to first learn to relax and, to some extent, be one with the water. Once someone realizes they can just stop and bob in place without moving much, their relationship with water changes dramatically.

From there to swimming just means slowly adding speed and direction. Style doesn't matter. Once they can stay in the middle of the pool until they are bored silly, learning how to move through water efficiently is the next logical step. The entire experience, if taught well, is very organic. More importantly, it teaches people that they can survive in water and that they have the ability to pause and use their brains.

> Fewer and fewer places to swim, more and more places just made everything a wading pool or a splash park to reduce liability

True enough. We live near a lake. I am good friends with the lifeguards from years of my kids being in the Junior Lifeguard program. They also know me from kayaking in the lake during Santa Ana winds (full dry suit and PFD).

A few years ago I was walking around the lake during a nice afternoon. I was walking in water up to my ankles. It felt good.

One of the lifeguards I knew well, came up to me on his boat to let me know that was illegal. He could technically fine me and even have me arrested if I refused to abide by the rules. Like I said, he knew me, so it was more of a conversation than a threat to action. He didn't like the rule any more than I did. However, they (the lifeguards) always told me that people do stupid shit at the lake and several have drowned over the years. And nobody wants to see that happen. So, nobody can even touch the water except where the beach is open and you have half a dozen lifeguards on duty.

Brilliant.

Re: Robots on Lake Michigan beaches to prevent drownings

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we just need to be ok with the fact that people will die. Trying to attain a zero incident or zero death policy is completly unrealistic.

Seattle has a zero traffic deaths by 2030 initiative: https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs... Of course, the only way to achieve this is by having zero cars. Airplanes are designed with a maximum fatality rate in mind, because mandating zero means mandating either infinite cost or zero airplanes.

> For seven years now, the city of nearly 60,000 people has reported resounding success: Not a single automobile occupant, bicyclist or pedestrian has died in a traffic crash since January 2017, elevating Hoboken as a national model for roadway safety.

https://apnews.com/article/hoboken-zero-traffic-deaths-dayli...

Re: Robots on Lake Michigan beaches to prevent drownings

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seattle has a zero traffic deaths by 2030 initiative: https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs... Of course, the only way to achieve this is by having zero cars. Airplanes are designed with a maximum fatality rate in mind, because mandating zero means mandating either infinite cost or zero airplanes.

> For seven years now, the city of nearly 60,000 people has reported resounding success: Not a single automobile occupant, bicyclist or pedestrian has died in a traffic crash since January 2017, elevating Hoboken as a national model for roadway safety. https://apnews.com/article/hoboken-zero-traffic-deaths-dayli...

I like the idea of the curb bump-outs. Intersections where you cannot see the cross traffic are definitely higher risk.

> Mike McGinn, the mayor at the time, said he wanted to recalibrate the public’s expectation of road safety to make it more akin to their thoughts on airplane safety, where no fatality is considered acceptable.

That isn't true. There is an FAA standard.

Re: Robots on Lake Michigan beaches to prevent drownings

#88
post #24

If it's $12k and requires an operator this seems more of a band-aid than anything. Where are the operators going to come from? And for a lot of places the operator + device probably pays for 3 lifeguards or swim instructors. Nothing is going to get better until we start trying to get out of the hole and improve the average person's ability to swim and make decisions in open water. I used to be a lifeguard and swim in…

Your desire that everyone learns to swim is laudable but as with all useful skills it takes work. Our completely distracted society is loosing skills like map reading, making change, driving manual, tying knots(still learning) ... (Sounds like a reason for Scouting and 4H) I will even posit shoelace tying given all the Velcro shoes.

12K is a lot for ROV (other comments suggest the could be cheaper ones) but the good news is the operator has had 10,000 hours practice on a Xbox. The Engineer/PM/Accountant in me hopes the ROV is reusable and will be used over many years spreading the cost out over time saving many people.

Hopefully the saved will come to Jesus (pronounced "heysous"), I mean the local teen working at the swimming pool who has a knack for teaching adults to swim.

Re: Robots on Lake Michigan beaches to prevent drownings

#89
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My alma matter (which is directly on a lake) has been gradually banning all unsupervised swimming for students because someone gets blackout drunk and drowns themself in the lake every year. I think it's a tragedy; I spent a lot of my formative time enjoying the lake and the outdoors (not to mention it being one of the few healthy ways to escape the stress of engineering school). The school is also gradually eroding…

What's interesting is that we may be causing much more loss of life with these bans than we are saving. We ban or severely restrict many physical activities then we wonder why childhood obesity is so high and why so many kids have metabolic syndrome and cardiovascular issues. Since the link is indirect we ignore it and a heart-attack is just considered bad luck.

Short term vs. long term effects.

Re: Robots on Lake Michigan beaches to prevent drownings

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it though? Death is an inevitability. Impossible to optimize the world for zero deaths. It’s a fools errand.

The problem is that once it is widely accepted that death is inevitable, that number will jump up from 45.

No it won't. This isn't like designing better brakes or something. Humans have free will and shit happens.
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